Assuming generic llsnl villian, no special reads, how deep should we be willing to stack off with KK preflop in general? Obv dependent on a ton of factors, so lets do an example:

Ex: 2-5nl
Hero $1.2k
Villian $1.2k

Villian raises from HJ to 20
3 callers
Hero bb 3bets to $110 with kk

Villian 4bets to $300
Hero?

Preflop? ~200-250bb, depends on how the action goes though.

Really? That seems higher than i would personally be comfortable with.
The thing with live is that once a villian 4bets, especially deep, its almost always KK+, and if we 5bet shove, the only hands they will call with is AA. At least imo

I think this is the whole point. There are 20 or so factors. Including how he has played pre flop. How often does he 4bet?

Is he a super nit? Does he over value post flop? We expect him to get it in pre with hands QQ or worse?

Folding KK isn't as fun as winning big pots. If they gots the aces, they gots the aces.

Depends on Villain. For some, there's no max.
Total complete nit-boxes, could be as low as 100bb.

Default: 'Bout tree fiddy

Who cares about having fun? Its all about making the right play

I just don't fold KK pre unless they are 90 years old with a WW2 hat, haven't played a hand in 3 hours, and 3bet an UTG open from UTG+1. Like I said above, depends on the action, but generally folding KK pre is always a bad idea. If you are seen as a LAG type player, they will get it in with worse often enough.

There are so many factors that go into this decision. It's tough to answer just a generic spot like this.

I don't think "how deep are you willing to stack off with KK" is a fruitful question to ask, partly because of what the bolded text above gets at. You can describe opponents as typical all you want, but you're not going to get responses from a homogeneous group of players. If I play 25/21 with a 3b% of 11 and you play 13/9 with a 3b% of 4, obv I should be much more willing to gii with KK deep than you should.

And obv other factors make a huge difference, as others have said. I just don't see the value in having a rule of thumb statement that you're generally willing to stack off with KK with X bb or less.

It depends on table dynamics. But I'm probably always going to be willing to stack off at least 250bb in a deep game.

I may fold for 100bb in a game that is playing very shallow.

What day and time is it? Against an unknown villain that would factor into my default assumptions a lot here.

In a weekday midday game, I see a lot of nits and OMC types who are not 4 betting wider then QQ+, they usually flat AK. Against that sort of range I'm not stacking off for more then 50BB. At a typical evening game that range opens up to AK/QQ+, and I'll stack off for up to 100BB. Move over to the overnight games and Friday/Saturday night games and that opens up to AK/AQs/JJ+ with a chance of 4 bet bluffs, now I'm flatting a lot and getting it in on any flop that doesn't have an Ace for up to 150BB. For the overnight Friday and Saturday night the games often get real aggro and bluffy, the value range is still around AK/AQs/JJ+ but the chance of 4 bet bluffs and bluff shoves goes way up. Now I'm willing to 5bet KK preflop and get it in preflop for as much as 200BB or so against unknown villains.

Hero : fold 90 %

or if you call and give it up w any Ace on board and pray for a draw type board to bluff. Otherwise it smells like hes got aces and your fukd.

This is very villain dependent. If this is OMC that hasn't raised in 4 hours, I'm not 3betting him. If this is some 20 something kid that has been complaining that nobody live can play well, I'm flatting and getting it in on most flops.

Grunch on title alone: About $350, assuming that we're playing 1/2

Why'd you ask if you already know the answer lol.

Totally villain dependent. If it is a regular, you should have an idea of their ranges in this spot. Against a random or without reads, I would assume you are spewing if you don't snap get it in with at least 150bb's preflop. Don't really know beyond that stack size though.

Its a pretty major error not to 3bet that type of player (although if they 3bet I instafold most). OMC's tend to be super sticky once they get a big hand. Deep, you want to be 3betting so we can get stacks in on a lot of runouts against JJ/QQ and sometimes from AK/AQ.

Plus it gives us a great sense of their range because that type of player usually 4bets KK+ so we know we can b/b/b profitably most of the time.

At the game I play at depending on who it is ill go broke with about 150bb but there are a few nits I laugh it off and fold. It all depends but the few times I've folded KK I was showed AA so I really depends on the feel of things at the given point and time.

About 150bb is when I start considering getting away from it. It is a lot easy to fold vs someone you have played with a few times and know they are relatively tight. Some people will spaz out with JJ, QQ, AK so readless I am fine GII <150bb.

Let me tell you guys a hand I played last weekend... Villain is new to my table. Only reads I have is that he has a poker stars shirt on and stacks his chips very neatly (I find out later in the hand that he has a Heavy Spanish accent). He moves to my game with 750, I have about 900. 2/5 nl.

Utg limps I make it 25 guy on my left calls V makes it 85. I tank for a bit and make it 250. He hollywoods about 60 seconds before declaring all in. I get up from the table and think about much I don't wanna stack off here with kings. I ask him you got aces.. He thinks for about 5 seconds and says you have kings. At this point I tell him I was thinking about folding till I heard your accent. And what's with the poker stars shirt I say? He declares it was a gift. I actually believe that. After about another 2 mins of agonizing thought I muck the kings face up and ask him to please show one time. He flashes two red aces.

The moral of the story here is you can't put a monetary value on mucking the kings it's all about a read. I've mucked them 5x pre in my life and seen the aces 4x (other time guy didn't show)... Once was for 18 bbs in a wpt event, saw the aces.

When the action is so clear it's a muck just do it, it's what separates the pros from the joes

I guess I am a joe then because I am almost always stacking off here. I have only folded KK once in my life to an AI pre and the guy showed me JJ. I was certain he had AA because of the confidence that was pouring out of him but I found out later he was a halfwit and really though his jacks were good.

I have seen an old lady fold KK to a 10bb open shove.

I agree. It may be theoretically preferable to talk in terms of BBs, but in practice in live games, there is a threshold number of bets preflop above which you simply do not see anything but KK+, except under unusual circumstances. IME, that threshold is between 4bet and 5bet. At the 5bet level, the splashing around usually stops and only the premium hands are left. I will often stack off (i.e. call all-in) to a 4bet shove, but I am rarely calling a 5bet shove (assuming natural raise sizes and deep-ish effective stacks, like 4BB-15BB-40BB-100BB+ AI) without AA. Sure, you may see people spazzing with less than AA-KK for a 5b shove, but it's rare. If I call a 5b shove w/ KK, I generally have some other consideration turning a fold into a call.

Now, call me a nit and make me like it.

150bb or less I an willing to stack off with KK against most villains without specific reads. Against really nitty villains, you can fold KK pre to a 4bet even 100bb deep. And 200bb deep or more I will give most villains credit for KK+ when they 4bet