I play mostly in home games with business people who don't get to play very often, so they're eager to play pots before they have to go home. After I sit down, I'll play tight for an hour or so and show my cards when winning hands and build up a tight image. Once that image is established, I'll try to switch to LAG and punish in position, force them to make bad decisions, value bet in thin spots, and its amazing how profitable it has become. Usually there's at least one or two good players at the table who I have to watch more closely, but this style has worked extremely well for me.

But, when I visit a bigger casino, I find that I am usually not as successful because there are more people willing to look me up (probably because they can read me far better than the players I'm used to playing against), and I have to choose my points of attack more carefully.

For me it's not about being aggressive just for aggressiveness' sake, but building an image, knowing your opponents, and position. And the more those factors work in my favor, the more aggressive I play my hand. If those factors aren't present, it just feels like gambling and I try to avoid it.

Hello, I have been yesterday in small local casino and I have met 2 players playing the style mentioned in OP on 0,5/1 table.

Do I think correct that counter strategy to this is to play short stacked tight push/fold?

The action was following: I buy in to the game for 25, they had stacks about 150. There were 2 other players at the table which I did not considered a real danger. But this 2 "maniacs" were scary.
So I lost about 30% of my stack all the same way, limped and than one or both of them rised usually 6BB more or less anything, they were alomost in every hand. On about 17BB stack I limped the action was as expected, rise 6BB and call by another one and I pushed allin. For my surprise both of them called one with 87o and other with QJs preflop. Which I do not consider as a good move from their side.

Do I miss any key element here?
What do you think is the best way to deal with such players?

short stacking can work against them it just wont be super profitable. But an, what you just described won't win with any size stack against anyone.

Live 1/2 is easily beatable for much more than that. Most people play awful and make huge mistakes. I was averaging 50/hour (25bb) last year.

stats or BS.
Sample size of 50 hands?

How do we like this strat at 1/2 tables where the avg preflop raise is 8-10BB's? Lets say most people are playing 100-300BB's deep, with maybe 1 person sitting 500BB's deep from a big hand. Most of these fish at my table dont grind their profits, they just win a few key hands from the dozens of trash one's they play.

Can we apply this approach if we buy in for 100BB's? Or should we just play a sort of short-stack strategy until we're in 200BB territory?

Can't post a graph since it's live but I do keep results in an Excel spreadsheet. That winrate (25bb/hr) was achieved during 195 hours of playing 1/2. I guess about 20 hands are dealt per hour, which makes it somewhere about 4000 hands.

I also have to add that my 1/2 game in a local poker club has a buy-in range 200-800. It often plays deep and feels more like 2/5...

Over 110 hours of 1/2 Im currently beating the game for $34/hour, thats about 5500 hands. So yes you can beat a 1/2 game for more than 10bb/hour. My game is $300 max buy in.

yeah, who needs sample size! On saturday, over the span of one hand I was beating the game for 300 BB/hand or 9000 BB/hr if we assume 30 hands per hour. So it's definitely doable and my spreadsheet shows!

What I mean to say is: less than 200 hours is not a sample size. It's a heater. Heck, less than 500 hours is not meaningful a sample size.

LOL to 100hrs or 200hrs and even 500hrs are not really a big sample

let`s start talking when u reach around 1000hrs

For example my winrate was 50€/hr when I was around 100hrs

And it still was 30€/hr reaching 200hrs

now with 310hrs it is around 15€/hr

first 100 hrs i was running hot and now for the last 100hrs I got sucked out a lot. it all evens out so dont expect to run that hot all the time

I have to agree with this. I am a moderate winner @ 2/5nl.

When I try to follow the style advocated in this thread (using position, aggression and backing off when played back) I usually end up losing more $. For instance, sometimes I raise with 25s, Q7s etc from LP and get looked up - after flopping a strong draw and missing it by river I end up losing some $ as live players are hard to bluff off at times. I end having to work my stack back up again by playing TAG fundamentals.

So its a bit confusing when the thread advocates a LAG style of play PF and TAG post-flop, but then other threads say just play the cards and match the boards at 2/5 nl level instead of playing suited 2/3/4 gappers??

That's because this thread is probably the most misapplied and mis referenced thread on the internet. A lot of us could play this way but don't have the psychological make up to do it well. Far more are incapable of playing it at all. Add onto that, that in my estimation this is the #1 most controversial thread in LLSNL and you've got a storm of BR destruction. This is a good read for beginners, but not really applicable. You can't just start playing this way. It takes a long time to build to.

As I have gotten more confident in my game and reading the weakness of live opponents, I have noticed players giving me the maniac role. I was discussing with this guy at my table about how playing in too many hands pre flop can make even the best player unprofitable, and this old guy next to me looks at my stack and says "Well you are making some money, and you have played over 50% of the hands!"

I had to just laugh and and agree with him, knowing his estimation was way off. I just happened to get into bigger pots more often then the droolers who only bet the nuts because I made moves in position and relentlessly V-Bet with marginal holdings knowing I had the best of it.

This same guy called off his entire stack to me on a KK782 board with QQ when I had AK and smashed the pot every street. Live poker gives me the giggles sometimes

I have to agree with this. Most of the time I sit down at the 2/5 game, my reads are: "Can't bluff him, can't bluff him, can't bluff him, can't bluff him, aaaaaand probably can't bluff him." Just gotta play TAG and make hands usually. When a lot of these players run into any sort of decent hand, they have a hard time folding it. They didn't wait around for 3 hours just to fold when they finally make a hand. So.... you wait. Sometimes you don't even need to build any kind of image, they will pay you off no matter what.

That being said, when a thinking player sits down at the table in this situation and sees your TAG game, you can start to open up specifically vs. them. 3betting them pre once in a while with marginal hands, raising other streets when you sense weakness from him. If they've made you as a TAG it will be hard for a thinking player to call you down.

Sure, once in a while you get super-nits that you can bluff, but they seem to be a dying breed. It's more typical to get people who can't fold big hands or who try to be Tom Dwan and play a very exploitable LAG style.

Did this nicely at the casino last weekend. My K2ss gets paid 3 way all in by crappy Ax on A22r. Free money this strategy, especially on weekends.

I highly doubt that anyone who tries to incorporate this strategy for the first time understands how to properly execute since they wont understand appropriate board textures to cbet and double barrel(a lot goes into this and just blindly cbetting every hand is awful and unbalanced), opponents stack-off thresholds, or how to adjust to different opponents.

I love when I see someone trying to play this strategy at my table bc most the time they are going to suck at it, and it usually can turn a bad/decent game into a good game without me having to sacrifice anything myself.

Ya it can look good when you run hot and flop good with garbage hands and get paid off, but most the time your just gonna be burning money when opening trash ip and whiffing post flop, especially if the table isn't extremely weak/tight.

Not to get off-topic...but you should check out a book called Scorecasting. The data actually supports going for it on 4th down in most situations. It's just unconventional. It gets people fired. Belicheck is actually the coach that goes for it the most. The rationale behind this is that his job is the most secure, and thus he can afford to take some risks.

I think you can benefit by migrating from TAG toward LAG, as long as you're not going nuts with it. Playing a lot of hands in position and being aggressive is a good way to pick up dead money. I do think you want to be careful though about getting crazy and "gambling" with marginal hands. I'd rather play a "small ball" version of LAG where I'm giving myself opportunities to win a lot of pots with relatively small bets, rather than getting in volatile situations where I'm risking a lot of chips as a slight favorite or worse.

Whatever lies between TAG and LAG I guess; that's what I like to play.

Didn't read every page, but how often are we 3betting? And what's our 3bet range with this style?

This whole thread and op is one of the greatest levels of all time.

I don't think it was mentioned at all but this is player dependent. Against most villains you shouldn't 3bet light as they only open premium hands and can't fold post flop when they hit tptk/overpair. You should however be 3betting a wide range for value against loose opens. Something like AJ+, 99+, KQ+, and suited Broadway's work well.

This thread is one of the most useful of all time but only when applied correctly. Most people will misapply the concepts. Also I think OP recommends too wide of a raising range pre in position against multiple limpers. Even at 100bb stacks this style is very effective but we just have to tighten up the raising range a bit. And calling raises pre with 84s even with position is almost always a bad idea no matter how deep

THis is a great post, and something I've been working hard at lately. THanks for this.

Wow this thread really opened my eyes. I always hear pros saying position is the most important thing.

My game is 1/2 nl at the Borgata in AC. One of my questions is about playing ANY hand (even something like 23o). Should I raise with every hand at the CO/BTN (of course not 3 bet)

Thanks

Also,
What if I sit down at a 1/2 where there is maybe 3-4 players who are 150bb+ and the rest -100bb? Should I still take this advice and raise on CO/BTN each time?

Another question is what if someone 2bets early on, should I raise/call/fold with a mediocre hand?