All,

Little Background:

I've played online/live poker for about 5 years now and have been a recreational but +EV player for about the last 3 years. I played primarily 1/2-2/5 Live and MTTs up to $75 online. I stopped playing last July after I graduated college because I wanted to get a job and devoted all my time to that. Since then, I'm employed and crusing in my job so I figured this would be a good time to get back into poker. However, with all of the online poker legalization issues, the only options I have are WV Charlestown (1.5 hrs -- they rake $6/half hour at 1/2 which is terrible), Dover Downs (2.5 hrs), Parx (3 hrs) and Atlantic City (4 hrs). Since July, I've been struggling a bit to understand the game flow, new tendencies (3bet/4bet), and putting people on ranges. I understand almost 100% of improving these parts of my game will require practice and play at the live casinos.

Question: I'm just wondering what you guys think are essential to be a winning player in LLSNL (1/2 - 2/5 NL)

Below I've labeled 10 things a live poker player should be thinking about at the table. This can be helpful to a lot of players who are just getting into poker as well.

Here's some of the concepts I'm trying to reinforce. Please add on to this list as well. Thanks:
1. Be positionally aware. Understand the hand ranges you should be opening from and in which positions. This matters because you will need stronger (tighter range) hands if you're OOP, compared to playing a weaker (wider range) hand IP.

2. Understand how players play their premium hands and bet sizing. In live poker at 1/2, most nits will only 3bet AK, AA, KK, QQ. They will call rather than raise with AQ more than 80% of the time and will never 3bet JJ, TT or AJs. Also, there are people who flat AK pretty often from any position too.

3. Understand how people's betting range is much smaller than their calling range. This just means that there are much more hands villain will call with, but not necessarily bet with. Being able to reconigze this is important if you'e oop and deciding whether to value bet, or c/r.

4. Figuring out what level your opponents are playing at. Most of what is stated here needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Ie. there no reason to bluff an opponent because you know your range is pretty strong and its a good spot for your to bluff. Villains who are Level 1 thinkers probably are just playing their hands face up and don't understand what you are repping. They will just call/fold if they like their hand. In addition, this goes the same with bet sizing. Most 1/2 opponents won't pay any attention to that.

5. Raising more when you have Premium Holdings preflop. I'm going to try and raise more to 15-18 when I have a premium and 10-14 when I am just normally raising. If I figure nobody will pickup on it, I want the fish to play bigger pots when I have premium starting hands -- makes sense.

6. Don't bluff stations aka the entire table. I've learned the hard way that people don't like to fold in live poker. They fall attached to their hand and believe that they are "destined" to hit their flush/straight/set etc. Therefore, there really is no reason to 3 barrel bluff someone if they are a complete station. Just bet for value most of the time and adjust if people recognize how you are playing. I think if you stick to this strategy, you should be a winning player at 1/2 Live.

7. Table Selection. I know this is tough to do in casinos because the floor usually assigns you to a table bc of the waiting list, but I think this is one of the most important things about being a winning player Live. You might get 2-3 regs on your left and it may be really tough to win at. There is always a plethora of good tables so if I get stuck at a bad one, I should leave my ego at the door and switch tables. Remember, you're adapting to the players at the table. They are the ones who will be donating you stacks.

8. Figuring out good spots to C-bet. This is challenging in Live poker because flops are usually 5-6 handed. It's rare a c-bet will take it down on the flop. Therefore, it will require usually a flop and a turn bet. When you're doing this with marginal holdings, you're going to get called down a substatial amount of the time with TP. This goes back to #6 bc people don't fold in Live poker.

9. Don't give off tells/facials expressions. This maybe one of those things that I don't pay enough attention to. I know it's not about "reading abilities" but I believe I need to play more Live poker to become comfortable with sitting there for hours without giving off to many tells. This includes your heart rate going up when you have a big hand or showing where your "range" is in the hand.


10. Play with a decent bankroll to deal with variance. This is one thing I can't really do anything about, but having reasonable expectations given the swings of poker, I should have a bigger bankroll to deal with it. Has anyone had staking deals for Live poker at the lower limits? I'm interested to see how that works and if it's similar to MTTs staking deals (I'm familar with those).

Please let me know of what I missed and add on to this! The goal is to help me but also anyone whose looking to gain knowledge playing poker. I believe many will find this very useful going forward.

Can't wait to hear what you guys have to say.

Don't play fatigued / sub-A game, and if it negatively affects you, don't play stuck. Stoplosses are a good idea, as rarely are LLSNL players unaffected by dropping 3+ BI, even properly rolled.

Good advice in general. I would phrase the tips less as "how to become a winning player" and more as "how to maximize your winnings with the intent of moving up", because even a pretty bad player can beat LLSNL but the goal should be to improve continually. "How to crush LLSNL" would be how I would approach it

Seems like your advocating abc poker. Thats cool, i wouldnt advise it. I think the best advice someone can give you is to change your approach for specific villain. To be more straight forward, im referring to the pfr. Paying attention and putting people on ranges is the most important thing.

I understand that yes this is "abc poker" but I've found that you can play that style to be a substantial winner at 1/2. Obviously developing your game and improve continually will help you becoming a winner at 2/5.

If you guys have most advanced concepts, this would definitely improve the usefullness of this thread too.

Be careful. Not all 1/2 players are incompetent and it will be picked up on.

Also, I like to continually analyze how the level two players view me after I establish who they are. Compare their bluffing and value-betting as well as calling tendencies towards you from earlier in the session to the present. Although it's live poker and there are small sample sizes, metagame changing hands are definitely significant enough at 1/2 to profoundly affect villain's tendencies, in MOST level two players.

3betting/calling ranges from the button is an advanced concept that i use. In ssnl its a vitale concept for a winning player. A concept that you must trust the information in front of you. Being in position helps us all, so i try to take full advantage of it. In a live setting the dead money is to frequent to pass up on good situations. Also, I hear alot of new players that state they didnt win because their card dead. But a real player is looking for cards and good situations to bluff preflop. Since bluffing postflop is really hard to be successful without the board being scary.

That's a great/advanced concept. I have a decent understand of it but would like to hear your basic range of 3betting preflop given 150bb stacks and limp/calling, weak raising fish at the table.

I'm thinking 3betting with premiums QQ+, AK and some decent SC like 78s,89s,JTs. I don't think we need to worry about balancing a lot but we should open our range instead of ONLY 3betting premiums OTB. That would make us predictable.

I've played most of my live poker in Florida and Vegas and I have never seen a game that is "usually" 5 or 6 to the flop after a raise.

Disagree. Of all streets standard ssnl players tend to make the fewest mistakes pre-flop other than putting in money when behind so bluffing pre is -ev. Many are playing fit or fold post flop but they like to see a lot of flops. Of all streets my bluffs have the most success on the turn in ssnl. I am looking for good situations to take hands away post not pre flop.

Maybe not 5 or 6 but surely multiway more often than not?

1-2 tables have tighten up significantly in the last few months in my experience. Your typical calling station/loose passive recreational player that used to make up the majority of the table now only takes up 2-3 seats, with the rest playing much tighter. Whereas having the whole table fold to a 10 dollar open raise preflop was unthinkable in march, now it happens all the time. People will need to adjust accordingly.

Understand that I'm a noob (coming from online micro-stakes with just 10 hours in 6 sessions since starting live on 7/15) and trying to build a bankroll, so I'm a somewhat nitty TAG playing pretty much ABC poker at 1/3. I'm figuring on loosening up a little after about 20 sessions as my comfort zone expands. Up to now, just going to the casino has been uncomfortable enough.

I'd put bankroll at number 1 and table selection and seat selection next. I'm learning I don't want to just trade blinds with a group of solid regulars (which I've been doing). Number one rule of deer hunting is to go where the deer are. Same in poker I think: You want some weak players at your table. Don't be afraid to sign up for a table change. My local casino doesn't seem to mind at all, even suggesting after my Saturday night's experience ($6 ahead after two card-dead hours at a table of regulars...it happens) that next time I should put my name on the change list.

Especially because of distances involved in your situation, checking out Brick & Mortar section of the forum to see what folks are saying about the poker room's on your list could be helpful. Some could be fishier than others.

My understanding is profit lies with the passive players and calling stations, which I try to identify as soon as possible (along with the other player types). I agree (again from limited live experience) with you that they only care about their cards. Most aren't thinking about their opponents holdings. Complex plays and bluff's will not work. DO NOT BLUFF THEM. While you understand position, they don't. Act accordingly. If a TPP or LPP raises or re-raises, I assume they have what they're representing unless I have evidence or information to the contrary. See Harrington and Schweithale books referenced below.

I try not to get involved with the regs with mediocre holdings until I get a line on them.

I've found Harrington's 6-Max cash game book both helpful and encouraging. Though titled for online players (**wistful sigh**) the concepts apply over to low live stakes. Also read Nathan Schweithale's short book, Mastering Low Stakes NLHE Poker Cash Games. Both point out that low stakes players have a different mind set than medium and high stakes. My experience has been the concepts in both books are similar and both work. Harrington's worked for me on-line at micro stakes. As for Schweithale, he says expect 35 to 40 per hour for a low stakes pro. My early results are definitely not bragging size, but for conservative, noobie me, I'm happy to be grinding out a decent hourly rate (25) as I learn. I've been playing at tables full of solid regulars (generally mid to late afternoon weekdays) and getting used to the environment and the people. My Saturday night foray brought small profit as the regulars wondered where the drunks were. Sunday afternoon was better, but still slow. Now I'm looking for games with more fish in them to up the hourly rate, talking to the regulars about the area's poker rooms and keeping up with our area's local casino thread in the Brick and Mortar section.

As for tells, when I mum up I stare at a hole in the air or at the board. Married folks (of both genders) may find this zoning-out process comes quite naturally. Pre-flop, I don't watch the betting action as it comes to me. I look left to see what those behind think of their cards before I have to act. Likewise I try not to look at the cards when they come on the board. I'm looking at opponents, even when I'm not involved in the hand.

I'd suggest reading or re-reading Caro's Book of Tells. After that pick it up two or three times a week and just refresh something for a few minutes. I try to apply one new concept each session until its a habit. I focus on those tells that Caro says have highest value per hour (though he gives that value for limit game). I'm figuring on re-reading Navarro's Read 'Em and Reap and doing the same thing with its concepts.

I'm also a post-game note-taker and reviewer, keeping track of my opponents and stats. I also spend time studying the forums here. I'm planning on reviewing my play monthly to see what needs tweaking.

PFR: I don't vary them too often. The solid players, and there should be a few, may catch on. Though I have used my watch as random number generator to vary PFR sizes.

Open Limping: I'm reluctant to do it, preferring to open raise. However, if the table permits it and depending on who's yet to act, I'll sometimes open limp with small pairs and suited connectors or one-gappers in late position.

C-bets: I've found a C-bet after a PFR eliminates all but one player on big multi-way flops against a table full of regulars from a tight player. From there the regs usually check it down if there's a scare card on the board which I will also do from time-to-time. But, if I think I'm best, I'll generally continue on the turn. I do vary my play against the solid players who might actually be paying attention.

Good luck in your renewed endeavor. Any comments would also be appreciated.

All the advice about what tactics to play etc probably isn't going to help you so much. You will have your basic game already when you sit down at the table and you will have the ability to adapt that to the situation within certain boundaries.

The following is more important and could save you thousands IMO.

1) Game selection (including the time to play and the casino) - For me this is less about changing tables once I'm at the casino but more about knowing where and when and what stakes I will be most profitable.

2) Bankroll managment - nuff said.

3) Tilt managment - there are all kinds of tilt including recognising when you're on an upswing and not becoming euphoric and/or overconfident.

4) not talking about poker or spewing your poker knowledge at the table. Let your opponents guess what kind of player you are. No need to give them any help. Only reason to talk would be if you're in an extremely weak home game and you need them to like you so you get invited back.

5) play long sessions - for me thats 6 hr+ (a lot of investment goes into getting reads on the table. when you play only 2-3 hr sessions, you're basically quitting at the point when you should be getting a feel for the table. You also may feel rushed to try and do something). but its not necessary to play every day. your brain is your meal ticket and it needs to rest sometimes.

6) keep a journal. It will help you stay honest with yourself.

The last 2 are tactical:

7) making sure that when all the chips go in you have good equity against your opponents range. If you look back on your session and evaluate all the allin moments and are comfortable with those spots then you're probably doing alright.

8) really understand why stack sizes matter. this is the biggest error amatuers make by overvaluing 1 pair hands in deep stack situations.

@minraze so your saying 3betting light is -EV? But bluffing postflop besides a standard cbet is +EV? I find that hard to believe. Op i usually 3bet light with hands on the top of my folding range with an ace or king blocker. I also 3bet good(live) suited connectors like 76s-j10s. It all depends on the preflop raiser and callers. This is after i have created a tight image and have solid reads on all the players. Making players fold is easier preflop. But can be expensive, its just the risk im willing to take. At low stakes nobody ever thinks your 3betting light. The lowest hand that most put you on is AK. It creates a dynamic that fish hate. Since they like to see cheap flops and like to avoid pressure.

I guess it's easier to say , rarely are pots HU in Live 1/2NL. At least 3+ ppl in every hand which makes it harder for your c-bet to become successful by a single bet.

See Bolded Above

I find Friday 7pm-Saturday 8am by far the best time. Saturday night would be my second favourite time.

By far the worst time is Sunday afternoon with grinders galore.

But when it gets to Saturday morning even the regs can start playing bad and by that time there are also usually a few players who are playing deeper than they're used to and are overvaluing medium strength hands in deep stack spots.

I am saying that bloating pots with anything other than the top end of our value range in ssnl is -ev. Some presuppositions for the majority of ssnl LIVE cash games: The vast majority of hands are going multiway to the flop regardless of pre flop action. Most ssnl players are playing fit or fold post flop. Given these statements we should be 3 betting only a depolarized range weighted to value hands (unbalanced) because it is not going to be exploited by most ssnl players. Fish give up smaller pots more easily than larger ones and they are not thinking about bet to pot size ratios so if I'm going to bluff I'd rather bluff at a smaller pot. The need to bluff at all in most ssnl is questionable, just valuetowning the stations is probably optimal in most standard (weak) ssnl games. This is obv very different than optimal play in tougher games but live ssnl hasn't gotten there yet.

Nice thread. Most of the advice on here seems solid.

thread hijack

...and lol at people arguing about what is standard good tactics at low stakes live. Its a big diverse world ladies and gentlemen.

I think it's really important for beginning players to be wary of blanket rules. Poker is a game of adjustments and making less mistakes than your opponents. You want to figure out how your opponents are playing and then figure out a strategy to exploit them. I don't think that having rigid 3bet ranges from the button or whatever is a great idea. While the guidelines may (or may not) be vaguely accurate it makes novices think about the game incorrectly.

You shouldn't be thinking: I've got AQs OTB and MP3 opened so I'm 3betting. You should be considering stack sizes, players in the blinds, what you think the OR's range is, how he'll react to your 3b with each portion of his range, our equity in each situation, how you think he'll play post, etc etc. There's no chart that could ever accurately account for all of the factors that should go into your decision. That's why you rarely see good players making starting hand charts for cash games even though many novices ask for them.

I think points 2 and 3 are very very villain dependent and saying that they're generally true is one thing but the most important aspect is paying attention to your opponents and adjusting to their play. If you have some set range of hands for your opponents in your head and never adjust then that's bad.

I think instead of saying that most nits do this with that hand you should simply say that you should always pay attention to every hand (even the ones your not in), take note of every hand that's shown down, and continue to construct and edit individual player profiles based on how they played. Some nits flat AA.

This. Solid post.

I think you made some really good points in this post. I definitely understand how "adaptability" is the key in hand ranges, and being one step ahead of your opponents. Obviously TAG/LAG players have completely different ranges for Raising/Calling/3betting/4betting etc.

I still think tho in Live SSNL poker, you should have an idea of what "range" your opponent should have based on what player type you have given him. This may not be a fixed range saying if villain raises or 3bets he only has these hands, but putting him on a larger range given his tendencies.

This is definitely a great start to the thread everyone. Maybe we can get into some situations/scenarios which will help everyone tremendously and understand all the points we have been talking about.

nice thread. a gree with much of the posts and disagree with a few.

1- Borgata is well worth the difference in proximity
I play Fri and Sat eves 7p to 3ish - never any complaints about game selection quality and quantity. Best poker room on east coast as far as comfort too.

2- strategy for 1/2 is day and night different then for 2/5 which is why I disagree with some comments and agree with others.
No need to ever bluff in 1/2 pf or post. Play a multiway strategy and you should do fine.

3- 2/5 (Borg) needs more then ABC poker to long term beat it. Based on your post - you have most of the necessary tools.

I won't get into specific strtategy because I really believe it is very situation dependent as well as hero's skill level and comfort level.
I will say this - I have learned that most players don't change much even after studying and trying. IMO most players have a style that suits their personality. Unless your going pro, and commit to change at any cost, it may be better to refine your comfort zone to maximize winning in that style as compared to trying to mimic a style that may not suit you.
One of endless examples - if your more comfortable playing mid stacks, when you get deep switch tables to bring your chip stack back to 100 or so BB. Some plyers just make better decisions with medium stacks. On the flip side others love the deep stacked game and the range it allows them to play profitably and don't mind the varience. If this is you, pick a deep stacked table rather then a mid stacked.