I haven't posted in a while and stopped playing regularly for about a year. So not only do I feel that I don't have an edge anymore at the table, but I think that players have gotten better? Anyways, this is the hand in question.

1/1 at the local card club, no rake.

Hero

I think my image is fairly solid. Other players tend to think that I don't pay anyone off, although as I mentioned earlier I feel I no longer have an edge. I am about 400 BB deep, playing from middle position and I have a pair of KK. The hand gets folded to me and I raise 10 BB.

Villain #1

whom is a regular and I think is a TAG calls.he is probably sitting with about 400 BB also.

Villain #2

Definitely a nit. He has about 250 BB also calls.

FLOP

858 rainbow

I lead out for 20 BB. Villain #1 raises to 60 BB. Villain #2 folds. This really threw me off since I think he would have 3 bet me preflop with JJ,QQ,AKs, obv AA and maybe AQs. After thinking for awhile, I called. Any thoughts?

Thanks

tough spot. I'm tempted to just fold when the guy raises with the other guy in the pot. It's a terrible line by him with anything really. That said, tight players don't have many 8x in their range and maybe he has enough over pairs in this range for this?

I still think I probably fold, but calling and re-evaluating the turn is probably a not terrible option. He'll shut down mostly with hands you beat.

In a deep game like this, you really want to be making the 3bet, not the raise with a big starting hand. If you're confident that someone will raise a limper, then I like limping. Otherwise, I'd just make a 4 or 5 BB raise to keep the riffraff out, accepting that if someone shows strength that I don't expect to bluff, I'm getting out of the way.

As played, you've got the classic SPR trouble situation of having being around 8-12. The decision is really this: Am I stacking off or not? If the answer is no, then you fold to the raise. If you are, then it is merely a matter of keeping in weaker hands. Call it down.

I'd call and re-evaluate the turn bet/check from him. I wouldn't put him on an 8 yet, I would think he'd raise on the turn with the 8 not on the flop. if he fires huge on the turn I'm folding.

I really hate the L/RR idea since its fairly transparent and allows most villains to put you squarely on a range of KK or AA, which is exactly what you have. Being the initial raiser keeps you range relatively wider and allows you to continue to get action from other weaker PPs. Don't count on other players to raise for you. As played I think this is an easy WA/WB situation and warrants a flat/eval line.

if you had a pair that didn't beat KK and this was the flop, what would you do?

what do villains perceive you to do with AK on that flop? how do they react when they think you have AK and they have 77? 99? JJ? are they conservative or do they try to push you off AK here?

I would C-Bet most of the time on this flop. I think this guy would have tried to push me off AK on the scenario you are presenting

I usually don't like this advice, but this is where I call and see what the turn brings and what he does. I probably call down a lot though.

I agree with pretty much all of this. I like the flat and reevaluate line. We will have a much better idea of his range after seeing the turn action.

Surprised I'm the first to bring up the 10 BB raise. Is this standard for this game / at your club? Seems on the high side and, if anything, seems to potentially make 8x hands less likely to still be in the hand (I'm not sure I'm calling anything but maybe 88 or 89/87s for 10 BB out of position, maybe just 88). And I think I'm looser than both the villains you described.

I think calling in position to re-evaluate isn't bad. No reason you can't fold the turn if it's a bad card and/or you pick up a read though.

Well, I called the 3-bet. While I was thinking about calling I asked if he would 3-bet me light. He then says he is holding 8-5 and he wants me to save some money, i have seen this guy playing before, but no means we are friends or anything that would justify the comment, after all, we are after everybodys mone that confused me even more. Another thing to add is that I was first to add. The turn brought a 7x. I don't remember the suit. This where I think I made the first mistake. I led out for 100BB. I'm thinking there is a possibility that he is lying and would fold. He calls...