Hello all,

I had a question regarding strategy/theory in straddled pots.

Whenever I see threads in a straddled pot, the effective stacks in terms of bb are essentially cut in 1/2.

Ex) We have $450 in a $1/3 game so 150bb deep; UTG straddles to $6 we are now 75 effective.

Should our approach/strategy now truly be the same if we happen to be sitting with $225 in a $1/3 un-straddled game?


I guess I'm looking for just more clarification/theory as to why we should really approach this hand as being truly 100bb specifically when it comes to our decision making process both preflop/postflop.


The biggest reason why I struggle with this is that the rest of the table - or let's say an average recreational player or even many regs - are unlikely to view their stacks as 50% effective due to a straddle and make decisions based off of that Thus way they perceive their hand and it's relative strength will almost always be in absolute dollars more than relative to bb and imo almost never relative to the straddle.


Is this a fair assumption? If so, it seems like that should factor into our decision making much more than whether we are Xbb effective due to a straddle. I understand how straddles should heavily affect our opening size pre-flop, but I'm not sure it should significantly change our post flop/pre flop decision making, esp in $1/2 or $1/3 games.


Sorry for the long post, and sorry I didn't provide any good examples. Looking for some helpful insight here on how to really approach straddled pots in LLSNL games.

The correct answer is somewhere in between. You're now playing 1/3/6, but many of your Vs don't realize it.

@Garick I assume that's the correct answer, if everyone just responds with an answer like that I'd be a little disappointed.

The reason I bring it up is because often times in a HH here, when it is a straddled pot, I feel that people factor/weigh the "new" effective bb stack due to the straddle far too heavily. I understand that it is a factor, but I feel like due to the fact that most Vs in LLSNL don't view it similarly, it is not as big of a factor. I feel like in LLSNL our biggest factors in decision making will always be +EV math and how we perceive our Vs to play their ranges/hands, and not quite oversimplifying decision due to "new effective bb stacks" due to straddles.

I don't think it's "somewhere in between". The straddle is essentially the new BB and effective stacks follow accordingly. The fact that others may not adjust should be taken into consideration when evaluating their action but does not change the eff. stack size.

Most of your LLSNL opponents will make poor decisions for their relative stack size in UNstraddled pots too!

I think it is somewhere in between. Don't think it's as simple as just halving the amount of bb's. It'll be shorter for sure but not fully.

Let me expand a bit. For your play, the new straddle is the new BB, but your Vs ranges and bet-sizing often do not take this reality into account, and if they do, they do so poorly.

Therefore, you have to look at what the straddle means to each V, most commonly whether they think they are making a big bet when they aren't, therefore indicating a better range than the bet size seems to indicate. Other weird effects though are that they don't realize that they don't have any IOs to draw anymore and play too wide a range (even more so than usual) both pre and post-flop, that they never believe a straddler's PF raise means anything, that some players try to steal the dead money way too much, etc., etc. Every V is different in how they approach straddled pots.

I agree that it falls somewhere in between and how far in between depends on how many good players there are. Normally there arent very many good players.

If youre playing 2/5 and the button straddles to $10, a good player who normally opens to $20 is going to open to $35-$40. The vast majority of players are still going to open to $20 and plenty of them still open to $15. If the pot is opened to $20 and there are 3 callers, the effective stacks are not cut in half. The effective stacks are exactly the same as a normal hand and the preflop straddle effect has been wiped out.

I think we are saying the same thing and this is just semantics.

The effective stack size is the effective stack size. The fact that some players don't adjust is certainly information to be mindful of / exploit but doesn't really make the eff stack size "somewhere in between".

As I said, straddle or no straddle you'll need to realize who is "stack aware". I see guys calling raises OOP for 1/3 of their stack to set mine. Doesn't mean the effective stack size is different because they lack conceptual and mathematical understanding.

If I have a $400 stack in a 2/5 game, its an 80BB stack. If someone straddles I still have an 80BB stack (not a 40BB stack). If someone opens to $40 who normally would open to $20, now my effective stack shrinks up but not until then.

The stack-bet ratio changes with a straddle such that it may price out suited or one-gap draws. In other words, you tend to play a tighter range in a straddled pot than a standard one.

It's not so much the straddle, it's what happens when it's raised. At $450, you have a stack-bet of 150 ... with a straddle, it's 75 ... but with a decent raise, say to $25 .. now it's 18. In this case, it's probably still profitable to play a suited connector (or not), but if your stack is borderline, you may need to have another caller to ensure an adequate payoff.

Most players do not play this way and end up playing a hand, perhaps winning it, but not getting paid off relative to the risk they took.

Does that make sense?

It does directly affect how you should be playing but it's impact depends on how deep effective stacks are.

If stacks are short it is really cutting BBs in half. Your looking for hands to commit with relative to effective stack sizes and that is directly cut in half. This can work in your favor when villains don't realize they should be playing tighter. What you play and how you play at 100BB is very different then 50BB. At a 1/2 table with most villains on $40-$80 stacks a straddle forces you to play a short stacked strategy or lose money.

As stacks get deeper it becomes more of a pot juicing bet because it won't change your preflop range as much. There are not a lot of hands you play at 150BB that are auto folded for 75BB. You need to cut down how often you play speculative hands but not drop them entirely. If normal stacks are above 200BB it's mostly just going to jack up variance by making pots bigger.

Disagree but w/e

I understand why you disagree. You are saying that the BB is now $10 so I have a 40BB stack. Technically that may be true but the hand doesnt automatically play that way. If it folds to MP who normally opens to $20 and he still opens to $20 and gets called by LP and by the button who straddled, the pot is the same $60 (plus $7 for the blinds) as it would be in any non straddled hand and my stack is the same normal 80BBs effective.

The hand should play like a hand of 5/10 which would cut effective stacks in half, but most players dont automatically double the size of their raises.

Don't know what some of the comments are about tbh, obviously the effective stack decreases. Way more interesting is the discussion how we should adjust between having 2 or 3 players in the blinds.

I am not entirely sure but I think theoretically we should open a tiny bit less in every position, as there are more players left to act as the new BTN now has 3 players behind instead of 2. So my new BTN open range would be somewhere in between my normal CO and BTN range and so on.

I agree with most things being said in here.

As mentioned, the reason why I posted/was confused is that I often read HH here, and it will be a straddled pot and a relatively tough spot pre-flop/post-flop and I regularly read comments that say "well it was a straddled pot so were actually like only 100bb deep not 200bb deep." And maybe technically speaking that statement is true (arguing that is not really why I created this thread) - it just seems like that isn't the best way to approach a hand because most villains in LLSNL are not thinking along those same lines and thus are not perceiving their hand strength that way.

IMO it 100% depends on villains, and in more cases than not, the villains are not thinking along these lines. To them, in a $1/3 game, $500 is $500 and is a lot of money; its not "80bb" in a straddled pot.

Of course it should change our preflop decision making.

Now part of the reason we open so big at the lowest stakes is precisely because a 3 or 4x open is perceived as cheap in absolute dollars and as we move up stakes will find that open raise size in bb terms frequently decreases to achieve the same results. So to some extent the straddle may cause this and a 4-5x open may adequately replace a 6-7x open.

When considering what direct odds we are offering for example though we should obv be aware of the effect of the extra bet in the pot..

If you are opening 6x the BB (12 in a 1/2 game) you are offering the next player 1.25:1 on a call. If it's straddled and you still open to 12 you are offering 1.6:1 simply based on direct odds villain will need less equity to call. So whatever calling mistake he is making its less of a mistake if the open isn't larger.

And what implied odds we are offering should be considered. Suppose eff stacks are 200. With no straddle, a 6x open offers 16x stack odds or potential implied odds.

A 24 open in a straddled pot offers 8:1 I/o.

Those are the unchangeable facts.

Anticipated flop SPR will usually be lower. This can impact our pf range.

Now if villain A views his hand strength in absolute dollar terms he may cold call pocket 4s preflop for 12 and fold for 24 in a straddled pot even very deep.

Player B on the other hand may recognize that the straddle justifies a larger open raise but not realize calling with a 200 stack is insufficient implied odds for set mining.

So being aware of how villains fail to adjust to the altered preflop price structure can present opportunities to force them to make bigger errors.

Obviously larger preflop pots = larger postflop bets or alternatively better odds being offered. Villains who already bet size poorly magnify these errors in inflated pots. You may be priced in to continue in spots you otherwise wouldn't.

Range adjustment...

I think this is the crux of the question. Is a guys preflop cold calling range the same for 27 in a straddled pot as it is for 12 in an unstraddled pot?

If not you can find spots to pick up pots or ISO a sticky straddler more effectively. But when called by a field player you need to be aware he likely has a strong range.

If a guy's felting range postflop doesn't widen due to the stack shortening effect of the straddle then we need to range him accordingly. Heuristics like "I can stack off with AA 100 bb deep guilt free" may not hold up $400 deep in a 1/2 game with a straddle.

But then your semibluffs may provide more bang for the buck because that same dynamic means that guy who won't call large raises in absolute dollars with one pair gives you more fold equity for the same price in terms of pot proportion.

I guess my point is we obviously need to be aware of how the extra dead money impacts preflop odds, how the pot growth is magnified and likely SPRs on the flop. Then we need to observe how our opponents fail to properly adjust to these facts and exploit them accordingly.

Do certain heuristics based on stack sizes measured in units of the largest preflop "forced bet" begin to break down? Yes I think they do to the extent that opponents ranges don't scale with the increased stake.

Typically we mention that stacks are shrunk by the straddle in HHs where the OP has stated up front that he is "deep" which has implications of some sort. Sometimes it is appropriate as a point of reference to mention that the hand may not "play as deep" as he thinks which has similar implications.