Hi all,

When watching online streams, I often see players going aggressively after splash pots and so on. I was wondering if anyone knows the optimal way to approach this? I.e. how much wider than the default GTO opening ranges should a player go if there is, for example, an additional 1bb in the pot from each player, in both 6-max and full ring? It seems to me that players open far wider than they should in these spots, and I'm interested to know what is optimal.

Thanks!

I would think the theory is much like when there are antes in play - more money in the pot, more incentive to increase our aggression by raising wider / bigger.

If you want exact ranges you'll need to run a simulation, but in general ranges get wider the more money is available to win.
People talk about how solved lines will do bluffs that no humans can find, but much less talked about is that solved preflop lines are super tight when there isn't money to fight over.


Note that the games you see on TV/streams will have antes but also basically no rake and other things like the standup game which heavily incentives players to win a pot. There is also some significant incentive to "make a fun game" by playing wider than you should, and sometimes a good player might call in a particular spot so they can play more hands with a worse player who will overcall too much. Also some of those players are the worse player calling too much.


For a concrete example (from Smash live cash):

EP opens 2.25x bb
MP with no ante and a rake folds 50% JJ, 60% TT (99 is mostly, and 88 is close to pure), and AQo/QJs pure.
MP with ante and no rake is never folding 66/QTs/JTs.

...again fold isn't the only change, adding rake makes a lot of the ranges go into 3bet/fold while removing rake means there are calls mixed in.

Thanks guys and yes - in the streams I watch I often see players going all in for 100bbs with small pairs or ATo+ etc trying to win 6bbs in the pot. I'm just not convinced that this can possibly be optimal wat to approach preflop in such a game?

Yes for sure, I couldn't agree more that with no antes and rake the opening ranges should be very tight. Also agree that TV poker is laughably loose and for entertainment only. Pretty amazed to hear that Petrangelo is suggesting to fold JJ vs EP 50% of the time.

It isn't the optimal approach, but people play that way on stream for the reasons illiterat gave. More than once I've heard a vlogger say he was VPIP'ing at a higher rate to make sure he gets invited back to play on the stream, or because he was trying to create more content for his vlog.

While cash games and tournaments are obviously different, I would think the tournament strategies for when antes are in play would help inform the adjustments we'd want to make in cash games with antes. The antes just add an incentive to be more aggressive because there's more money to be won.

Re-reading your OP, I take it you're asking out of curiosity, not because you're playing in cash games with antes?

I was referring specifically to online splash pots, rather than live games with antes etc or other incentives to play loose. I don't play in cash games with antes, but I do play in tournaments that have them. Here's an example of what I meant:

https://youtu.be/rEK3OJSXbsc?t=379

It's a 'splash pot' with an additional 10bb added to the pot. Facing a 2bb open from the C/O, hero jams for 170bbs effective with KQo.

I'm not convinced this is an optimal play but please correct me if I'm wrong!

As Illiterat suggested, run a simulation and see.

It doesn't sound correct to me, but I have no horse in this race, so no incentive to think about it more than I have to this point.

Honestly I don’t hate shipping KQ here depending how often CO is opening and if we’re last to act in BB heads up it could be pretty decent as it’s only like 15 x pot and in sit n gos where this situation happens every other hand shipping KQ is kinda a standard open. Remember Harrington M

I've watched a lot of streams where good online players have played in these GG splash pots. They all play them similarly to how Ginge plays this one.

If you pay close attention to this video, the streamer (who, from my understanding, is a relatively good and well-studied player) says "so the blind is $14."

What he means by this is because there is $23 in the middle to start the hand, he is choosing to think of this spot as if it is being played at $7/$14 blinds (where there would be $21 in the pot to start the hand).

If the big blind is $14, then the deepest stack in play when he shoves KQo is 24bb. I have not spent any time looking at charts for 25bb play BTN vs CO, but I would think KQo plays well as a 3bet shove in this spot.

Well you posted the question in a live cash games forum, you might find better answers specific to online tournaments in the online strat forum but the splash pot here was only 10BB's so to me it's just button pressing laying 172BB's to win 14.

I basically play splash pots by betting with respect to the size of the pot, just like if someone called pre and folded there's more dead money in the pot so I would increase my bets for the most part and preflop I would raise more than I ordinarily would just like I would if there were more limpers.