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03-14-2015 , 01:36 PM
Haven't done this in a while, but I'll give it a shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
Based on that, I would think a 4! from QQ against a thinking player gets him to fold AK b4 flop, which is good. How would we be "certain to stack off" if we can confirm what V has preflop & fold? I guess because we are the favorite vs. those few times V has AK
No, you're mixing V's 3bet range vs V's calling range.

Obviously if I think V's 3bet range is KK+ and fraction of AK, I am folding QQ all day.

And your guess of my logic was actually quite off, because we are merely 56% favorite vs AK and really behind against KK+, so nowhere in my rationale of stacking off had anything to do with QQ being favorite vs AK.

Range, range, and range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
IMO, the worse thing about a 4! is that it gets hands we are crushing to fold.
That's basically the same thing as the bold part that you quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
I interpret what you are saying above, that, rather than find out PF where we stand [V only calls with KK+ & maybe AK suited], let's go2the flop dark & push all-in then & find out what he has.
That is not what I said at all. You're mixing up ranges, V's 3bet and his 4bet calling range, and you won't be able to follow my logic until those 2 are clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
That's good if V has AK, since the majority of the time he doesn't flop a pair, but I don't see the value in pushing all-in on the flop vs. TT+ on a J high board.
AK still has tons of equity against QQ even if he doesn't flop A or K, and given that this pot was 3bet pre, folding out AK is not a bad thing.

As for hands that are way behind us, obviously we want them to call, but given our available choices preflop, this is an acceptable result. You have to understand that our flop decision is an extension of our choices preflop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
If V's range preflop on a 3! is 99+, AKs/o, AQs, then we don't want an A,K,J,T, or 9 on the flop & see V betting into us.
Obviously, isn't it? Clearly the toughest part is seeing A or K on the flop, but it is what it is. Again, if you can make better decision(s) preflop than 4bet shove or 3bet call with QQ, let's hear it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
If we are willing to stack off with QQ, how often would V NOT be willing to stack off with KK? I'm "nittish" at times, however, I am not running from a K high flop against a good TAG just because an A came on the flop. That is where a lot of TAGs make their money - convincing their V's that they have an Ace.
How would I know? You're going beyond scope of the discussion into specific reads, something none of us would know, unless you are playing yourself.
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03-15-2015 , 05:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Not much time, but I'll answer the easy one. OMC stands for "Old Man Coffee," which is a nickname ofr the nitty old reg who comes to the casino to drink coffee and fold almost everything. When he wakes up and starts betting, he has a monster.
Yes! Ol' Man Coffee is listed on the website, I just didn't put 1+1 together.
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03-15-2015 , 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
No, you're mixing V's 3bet range vs V's calling range.

Obviously if I think V's 3bet range is KK+ and fraction of AK, I am folding QQ all day.

And your guess of my logic was actually quite off, because we are merely 56% favorite vs AK and really behind against KK+, so nowhere in my rationale of stacking off had anything to do with QQ being favorite vs AK.

Range, range, and range.
I think my going on and on became confusing. What I meant was:
If PF you OR, OMC 3-bets, you have a few choices:

1. Call & shove any flop, since you can put him on a "3! raising range"
2. You can 4! & if OMC calls, you can tighten up his range from his 3! raise range. Now you can proceed more cautiously on the flop.

I think I also confused things in that OMC is in EP & you're last to act in the scenario given. I also forgot that the scenario involved short stacks of ~$200 each.
My bad all around for confusing things.
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