I'm button with k4 offsuit raise to $3 ($450 behind)
Sb folds
Bb calls ($400 behind)

Flop
K 10 6

Bb leads out $10 overbet
I thiink and call
Turn 4
Bb bets $25
I reraise $65
Bb calls
River 2
Bb bets $125

Wtf!?!?!?

I think about reshoving only thing that might call me is a weaker two pair oor ak, turned set seems kinda likely, but i have a blocker for that, no set or draw on flush cuz overbet, maybe pockets aces??

few things since you are new:

1. dont post results until the thread has been up for at least a day. this isnt about results, its about how you played the hand. results cloud peoples responses, and are irrelevant


2. post your reads on villans. any history with them? what is your image?

not busting your ba**s but just tryin to help for other hands you post.

as played, this game just seems like a joke, first off you should have folded pre and let the blinds chop, second, wtf is ur buddy doing?

you can't really apply poker skills to this game because it seems like its a bunch of buddys who just want to get together and drink and gamble.

even as the button K4 off is not a hand you want to be playing much

Grunch.

Don't post the results, it will bias the responses you get. It would also help to know something about the player you are playing against. This is a home game right? Have you played with this guy before? Either way, I would just fold this pre-flop. K4o is a pretty bad hand, even from the BTN. Flop is kinda player dependent, against a lot of players this is Tx a weakish Kx or a PP, usually between 6 and K. Against some this is always KJ+. I don't hate the call OTF fwiw. You didn't include the suits of the cards either so I'm kinda assuming it's rainbow.

As played, the turn is fine IMO.

The river is player dependent, If I thought this player was capable of bluffing, then I might consider calling. But what you have to understand in this spot is that you don't really beat any hand that is value betting in this spot. So to make the call, you kinda have to be sure that you opponent can be bluffing in this spot some of the time. I would guess that most players don't bluff like this.

Consider RIO when opening these type hands.

Welcome to the forum, OP. Some good advice above you, both about needing reads and not posting results (I took them out) and about the fact that K4o is really just a fold that deep. Only open this when folded to you at the end of a tournament, when your main goal is fold equity. Otherwise, just dump it and move on to the next hand.

Needs suits to make sense of this. If the turn brought a FD, that makes a big difference. Mostly, though, it just sounds like V was pressing buttons.

I would probably flat turn. Let him keep barreling away. Not sure his continuing range is so favorable if we raise this huge bet, even with the BTN vs blind dynamic.

As played it's reads based but generally calling the river and whatever.

Lots of good advice in this thread.

Maybe you're the kind of player that can play K4o profitably as a button raise, but judging from the lacking info in you're thread I highly doubt it.

I haven't seen the results, but I will say that three things are needed before it's possible to comment much on the hand:

1. Suits of the cards (flushes and flush draws change things a lot)
2. Description of how this opponent plays (see other threads for examples of what kinds of info are useful)
3. Description of your image (how the opponent views you is important)

I did want to comment on this... because it's just so damn bizarre. Why do you think a modest overbet on the flop 800bb deep can't be a set or a draw? Doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all. Why do pocket aces make more sense than, say, KT?

Huh? What is wrong with opening K4o. Depending on the game, it can be a perfectly fine open. What has OP said that makes the game a joke?

And, how in the world can you not apply skill to this game? That makes zero sense, and is just wrong. If a game is full of a bunch of players playing exploitably, or even super-exploitably, then you adjust to exploit their mistakes, and in some cases exploit their big mistakes, if they are just out to drink, and gambool.

You didn't show suits of cards. Was there a flush on board, or flush draw that busted or anything?

If no FD, I see really no reason to raise the turn. He's lead 2 streets huge. Raising kicks out some of the hands we are wanting to get value from, and, depending on the player, mostly better hands are continuing. No need to inflate this up to the point where you are playing an 8 BI pot, with not a great hand to be playing an 8 BI pot with.

I mean, really hard to say with no reads on the river. Like, shoving would be horrific if he's even remotely decent. He shouldn't have AA in his range, so not sure about that. Not sure why you think turned set is "kinda likely". That is "kinda crazy", imo. There's one combo of 44 left, and even then, it would require him to over bet donk the flop with 44, which again, seems odd. There's a ton of other combos that mae way more sense like KT, TT, 66. Maybe others if we had a read on the guy.

Really depends on the player if you should call river. Not really enough reads to say. I mean, is this the type of guy that would 3 bet TT, AK, KK+, PF? Is it the type of guy that would call OOP with K6, KT? Is it the type of guy that can run huge bluffs, or value bet worse here? All of this would be helpful in nailing down a range.

fold pre

don´t fold pre.
yes, playability plays a part when deciding to open or not, but you can´t really plan ahead too much. let´s take this street individually:
we do have an equity advantage vs a 100% range (bb). we are 33% vs two 100% ranges, but we surely have some FE too, making this a profitable steal. if he defends all his hands, he won´t make a mistake, but prob doesnt, and if he does fold non 0%, we make profit. prob no rake in a home game, so last time i checked, stealing with positive EV vs a bb range for at best 1 1/2 bb is a good result.
if raised, easy fold.
if called, see the next street which we don´t know yet. all we know for sure is
1) we have positional advantage if called
2) we make immediate profit if we get either sb or bb to fold
3) we have an excellent result if both fold
4) we lose 3bb if we get raised.

so, in my humble opinion, pre is an open, unless told otherwise (very good players in the blinds, esp 3bet happy players)

esp postflop, reads would be nice. gambly, nitty? any sizing tells? bluffs if it´s the only way to win the pot?
overall, looks like btn clicking too me, but i don´t see much bluffs in his range, and we are probably crushed by his valuerange, that´s most likely a huge bet for this game, i don´t see much hands we beat

Damn, 800bb behind! That's one hell of a deep game!

Haven't read the other posts. Here are my thoughts:

PF: So it's folded around to us on the button and we raise to 6x. Is that pretty standard for blind stealing in this game? Raise is fine to try to steal the blinds (if they are weak tight), or if you know you can outplay the blinds IP. So BB calls and we're heads up. Pot is $6.25.

What's your stack size? Makes a big difference.

F: Villain donks 160% pot. You don't give us suits; makes a big difference. We have TPBK. You give us no reads on your opponent, so who knows what he's doing with this? He obviously likes his hand. We decide to "think" (well, that's good that we decided to "think"). I'm fine just calling. No need to raise. Pot is $26.25

T: Villain bets pot. We pick up two pair and decide to raise. Again we have no idea what the suits are. I don't really see the point of this raise. Yeah, I have two pair, but I don't love my hand based on Villain's actions so far. We may be value owning ourselves. I'd like to keep the pot smaller.

I would of just called. The Villain is building a big pot anyway....do we need to make it bigger? Can't fold though. Raise size is a bit low. We are giving him 3:1 (enough to continue with a 13 out draw) We are giving him pretty good odds to continue Not sure the point of this raise size. Pot is $156.25

R: The 2 is a total blank, and Villain donks 80% pot. At this point, it looks like we're beat. We need to fold. Shoving here is a total spew and makes zero sense.

everything makes sense in this hand. He has a strong hand, and you have a strong hand, now you have to decide whose is stronger. A shove is rarely getting called by worse, he most likely flopped 2 pair and felt it was vulnerable and has played it strong the whole way

Villain could easily have KT, TT or 66 here. Without reads on villain and whether or not they fast play their monsters it is difficult to tell.

Fold pre. As played I call the river and am unhappy about it. Villain has shown huge strength on what appears to be a fairly dry board (as suits aren't included). 2 pair beats a bluff here, and that is about it.

Sorry I missed a lot of info, it was a shorthanded game, board had 2 hearts on the flop, no flushes came through

the game is extremely looes between the 3 of us, the 4th is a nit, this player is very bluffy, and we value bet big extremely light. (he could be value betting with AK here or a weaker 2 pair)

for 4 handed there's not much folding preflop with the blinds/ opening raise being so cheap.

if that´s your read and it´s correct, then either call or even valueshove river. but i doubt it tbh...
do you really think he´d play AK this way? he didn´t even play one street the entire way like he would AK/AA, so tbh, i think that hands make up a very small percentage of his range. ain´t that many realistic two pair hands either that he could play this way...

as a side note, although i defended your preflop action, didn´t see you made it 6bb. that´s just silly imo. raise 3bb, or even minraise, but i don´t see any reason to go 6bb unopened

Serious question: Is 6 bb's that weird for a live game that is playing 8 BI's deep? I usually play online, and switch between 3x or 2x depending on if I'm playing 6 max or HU. But when I play live 5x seems fairly common.

I don't think players should just be raising to 'x' because 'that's what you do'. I think you should think about 'why' you are doing something. Like the reason I min raise HU is because it gives a better prices to steal with ATC's, it's cheaper to let go if I fold to a 3 bet, and I have more room to maneuver if I want to call the 3 bet, or 4 bet bluff.

Now, if I was playing in a game where I'm never getting 3 bet, and the norm is for 70% of the table to see flop when someone raises 3x, it kind of makes sense to raise more. If certain players are price inelastic, and willing to pay 5x-6x the same as 3x, why not charge them double? And, it may discourage some people from calling too, and thin the field a bit.

I mean, hypothetically, lets say it's a 9 handed game. I pick up AA, raise 3x, and 6 players go to the flop. Pot is 18bb's going to the flop. Now on the flip, lets say 9 handed game, I pick up AA, and raise to 6x, and get 3 callers. Pot's still 18bb's going to the flop, but I only have to navigate 2 villains instead of a 6 person minefield.

Also, being 8 BI's deep kind of matters too. It's normal for people to raise more, and 3 bet to bigger #'s when playing deep.

K4o = ATC. Plays best if you don't look at your hole cards.

call turn

call river

K4o = top 50% of hands, and there are plenty of games where opening over 50% of buttons is fine. Hell, opening ATC's on the button in HU is standard even against guys that 3 bet a ton. Opening 50%+ of hands w/ 2 guys in the blinds if they are folding a decent amount, and only 3 betting a small amount isn't even a question in my mind. Not every game is it going to be right to open 50%+ otb, but there are tons of games where it's easily profitable.

He's risking 3 dollars to win 75. That means he needs both players to fold 80% of the time. I don't know how to weigh games but I'm guessing in most of them people are not folding 80% of the time.

In any case, in this game he said there's not much folding pre-flop.

The situation is blindingly clear.

This trainwreck started pre-flop. This is not a big-pot hand.

He doesn't need them to fold 80% of the time. He has position, and initiative. He would need them to fold that much if there was no such thing as postflop.