just so i understand you expect him to raise all 2 pair on the flop but to flat with all straights and then jam a board pairing / higher straightening river? im not saying the hand is a call or a fold, but i think thats a really bizarre parlay of assumptions to make. i think river sizing is too small by us if its unclear if he will raise worse hands and we think he has 43 / trips in range

also, the hand got edited right? i swear the first time i looked at this the flop was monotone

Strawman argument. This is poker, a gambling game… every bet is laying a price to call, and nothing is definite. If he raises flop with two pair + some % of the time, and slowplays 43 some % of the time, he can easily reach river with an equal ratio of boats: straights. But river is a call as long as he has 2:1 boats straights… no contradictory assumptions needed to justify a call.

No, the board was not editted. There was only a flush draw on the board. My reads where slighlt modified

are you sure? because i remember it being monotone and then someone posted and said "holy turn spew" which i doubt they would do with 2 overs / bdfd / nut gutter. isnt a big deal if it was and maybe im going crazy lol

Turn is still a spew. Im betting with gutter, 2 overs and a flush draw on the turn... but I will never get a fold of both villains in this spot so it was quite bad lol

If I said it once I said it a thousand time. A good player knows when to lay down a big hand. We make money by folding (not by calling).

Are people only calling because it's the 2nd to last hand then? If so, how does everyone even know he would do this on the next to last hand? Has he done this every time they say last call? If so, call of course, but on the surface he's so wide there that he could show up with all sorts of FH's ainec. I don't see anything here to say it's a snap, but maybe if I was there, or knew just as much as the hero knew but didn't post it, maybe I'd call but itt I fold.

The guy called an all-in on turn with AK no heart on Jh5h2h9c. He’s absolutely clueless and doesn’t understand hand strength.

I don't mind the flop bet, but would bet less ... after everyone calls just stop.


Turn seems the worst street by far.


On the river pretty easy assumption that V2 isn't bluffing correctly/significantly (in general call/call/shove-3-ways lines), so we have 32 combos of worse straights and 28 combos of full houses+.
A2/K2/23/24 all seem like hopium. Some might be good bluffs, but V just isn't bluffing this well.

I would heavily discount the 43 straight unless I thought V was happy to "trap" flop and then go for it, so 32 combos is more like 24 combos at best.

All of the FHes+ are fine/good played this way (maybe 66 value raises flop, maybe 77 raises pre), and both 43/84 should raise earlier.


Seems like calling off 3.5x pot going into the river doesn't seem that close, and in general I see people as way more likely to "overvalue" the worst FH than the worst straight ... and even then V would have to be doing that with a straight on a paired board.
Being late at night and everything maybe being insane because of that I could talk myself into a call, but it's still mostly street poker and we are counting on V to be going insane.

It’s not 3.5x pot it’s actually just a half pot raise so pot odds are incredibly attractive.

Pot at the start of the river was 470 ... villain wants to put 1405 in. I guess I dropped the 70, so it's only 3x.

Yes, as the action happened we bet 300 and there was a call and then V shoved for 1105 (~0.75x pot) more when V1 is already AI ... so at the end we get to call ~1.1k for a ~2.6k pot.

At the end we have to call 800 into about 2200, …or a $800 raise into a $1400 pot which is about 57% pot raise to be exact…we’re getting close to 3:1. We lose to max 21 boat combos (less if he raises some 66/22/two pair on flop), so the question is if we can find 7 non-boat combos.

Why lead there for THAT much if you won't call it off? It's not thin value. If the bad player isn't running well, how can he possibly have more chips than you do? Missing some details here.

Lol this is funny

Some friends critizied me for that call. He is a fish, we all know it, terrible player, but he is not bluffing a dry side pot. Not being results oriented, but I think this was a clear fold (unless he is overvalueing a deuce)

2 hands to go before close? Call. I run into this all the time playing till close and players absolutely spaz their brains out, thats why you play till close, especially vs someone who is down and especially vs an erratic player. Most common line heard after they jam into my KK? "Wow you really had it, I thought you were bluffing".

Also as played I hate the flop/turn leads. You said you wanted to "take a stab" at it, stabbing with what? There are 4 people in what is essentially a limped pot, odds are somebody hit a pair and nobody is folding unless you 3x the pot. And then when they call you barrel turn? The 2 doesnt hurt them and nobody is putting you on a deuce so again, what are you accomplishing? But since you got there anyway bravo.

I don't get why you completed the extra $10 pre flop. These BTN straddles are kinda silly - the sb and BB act first - that doesn't make any sense, you need to be very very tight out of the BB if that is the case. You should have an even stronger range than UTG because what usually happens is if you call the $15 someone just raises and you get squeezed out of the pot. 8d9d isn't strong enough to complete, especially being this shallow (you have some 30bb stacks behind you) - you aren't even 100bb effective. I'm folding almost everything in the first few positions except for the very best starting hands and certainly opening for a 4x raise to $60 on the hands i want to play. The call from BB is the biggest mistake by far, and no one seems to question it.

As played - flip a coin man. You butchered this hand to even make it here and now you are just guessing in uncapped ranges where he can have honestly any 2 cards. He probably has some stupid hand that beats you, but who knows.

It's 4 way. I view it as the equivalent of being in the Lojack with a probable BU caller. Even 30BB deep, 89s is a raise from that position IIRC.

he's in the big blind - which is before UTG - these BTN straddles make the small blind and bigblind act first. You can't 4x raise 30bb with 89s. Stacks are so awkward this is just a fold preflop - if everyone was deep i could get behind it.

I understand he's in the big blind. But they are 4 handed so IMO he's effectively in the lojack having already paid 1BB.

How would you play the lojack if you had posted a small blind and the Button had posted the BB?

Just to get back to the original point made earlier on, everyone is making the question about whether or not V2 is bluffing. He's almost never bluffing here, let's be realistic. This is LLSNL.

However, the real questions boil down to, would V2 3-bet shove with 34 or 48 (or 98?) into 2 people representing strength? Can he show up there with 34 or 48/98 as played? If yes to both, then it's just a question of combinations of straights versus boats. There are drastically more straight combinations including a chop, so if you're entirely sure that it's a yes, this is a call. The entire rest of the hand post flop is pure spew, and I don't think that's disputed.

The way this hand was described screamed FOLD to me, but I think the math would disagree, ONLY if we could make a case for the combinations of straights.

I DO know that a lot of players who are stuck balls by the last hand will slow play a big hand on a wet flop hoping to juice a pot to get way more unstuck than taking down a small pot on the flop. It actually makes sense if you look at it through their eyes. I don't think one should make the assumption that a V2 big hand is off the table on the flop just because he only called. This is why I do not take away any boat combinations except 99 and 88 and maybe 77 based on pre. So 34 is a yes, and so are 48 and 98, in terms of, "can V2 show up here with this?"

The big question now becomes whether or not he would 3-bet shove on a paired board with not even the nut straight (9th or 10th nuts). The only bad play represented by OP for V2 was passive: a bad call. You don't often see LLSNL players 3-bet shove into 2 players representing strength on the river, unless they have a truly monster hand. To quote shark tank: because of that, I am out.

I have to give a shoutout to luz4ggro for not only initially posting but continuing to post in a year old thread where lots of shots were fired about his plays, but also I can't help but smile at this pure cannonball blast of a first comment:

It sounded better while I was typing it...

oh i see, i missed that part about it 4 handed - I still think fold>Raise>complete is going to be the best strategy preflop. Just sucks to have that short stack behind you 30bb because you can't really 4x pre and making it 2x pre is just awkward and completing really sucks.

I would just sacrifice the BB and want to play in position with these stacks. if that 400 stack was bigger I would just open raise 4x this hand. $60 to win $20 seems pretty good, but that 400 stack can profitably shove any decent hand which we can't really call.

I've been reviewing hand history from my first post in twoplustwo to see the evolution of my hand analysis. I started winning constistenly exactly 2 years ago when I actually started studying solvers,playing low stakes online to practice (which I reccomend to anyone, online players are much better than live on average and if you don't study you get crushed), and grinding 100+ hours a month. I know sometimes I like to make splashy plays like these but this forum has really helped me get perspective from different players, so I would like to thank everyone here for that. I actually read each of the responses and I don't have any ego involved, I never get mad.

Talking about the hand. It was the end of the night and we were all tired, flop and turn are total spew. But I still incline to think that the river decision was a fold, maybe I'm result oriented, the villain may be erratic, but he is not bluffing 2 players with a dry side pot

Your thinking about this should happen BEFORE you bet. It's a paired board. It doesn't seem like anyone had a big overpair so probably more cards in the lower range.

I'm going to rasie blah and if h re-raises im doing to do bla and for that reason I'm raising blah. The river bet folds out a lot of the weaker hands. Also, if someone has a boat, you just bloated the pot and you'll have a hard time getting away from it.

In this case, on the river, your thinking BEFORE betting, should be I'm going to bet $150 to get value bad hands and if he raises a reasonable amount I'll call otherwise if he jams I'll fold.