2/5, $1k max, 9 handed.

V1 - SB (covers) - 30'ish Asian guy. Changed seats a few orbits after hero joined the game, then disappeared for 1.5 hours to go play Baccarat (don't get me started). Was pretty active before he changed seats, but hasn't played many hands since he got back from Baccarat, about an hour before this hand. Don't think if I ever saw him 3B pre. Usually had a hand at showdown, but wasn't showing down a lot of hands.

H - UTG, ~$1400 - early 50's white guy. TAG. Had been crushing the table early on. Was up over $2100, but now up-stuck after being card dead for the last couple hours and getting coolered a couple times. Hero has proven very capable of making big bluffs pre and post, showing down a couple whoppers.

V2 - UTG+2, ~$900 - late 50's/early 60's white guy. Loose pre, sticky post, calling hero's c-bets and turn barrels with all his draws. Had been insta-calling ~80% of hero's pre-flop raises, inviting others into the pot, very annoyingly. Will bet with thick value, and semi-bluff flop or turn when hero checks to him, but doesn't seem to be going for thin value or bluffing rivers.

V3 - HJ, $~1200 - late 50's Indian guy, same guy who in a previous session flat called hero's UTG+1 3B with KK, and flopped top set, cracking hero's AA. LOVES to call hero's pre-flop raises wide, especially when someone has already called. Recent experience with this V shows he'll get sticky on flops and turns, and chasing his draws. He's basically a nut-peddler, who has never shown a bluff whenever he showed any aggression.

OTTH...

Hero opens AdAh to $20. all V's call. Everyone else folds. $80 going to the flop.

Flop is Kd7s4s. V1 x, H x, V2 $40, V3 call, V1 x/r $160, H 3B $400, fold, fold, SB jams all in.

Pot is $1940, with $980 remaining behind, so hero is being laid about 2:1 on a call.

Hero?

Hero's losing to 13 combos of 77, 44, K7s, K4s, and 74s, obviously, but hero's unblocking all of V's AXss, KXss, AKo and KX with one spade, 56, any XXss.

Is this just always a fold? Is anyone here finding a call?

Is anyone just folding as soon as V1 x/r's, or just flat calling with V2 and V3 still in the hand? Is 3B'ing over V1's x/r mandatory, knowing how sticky V2 and V3 are?

I would certainly lead the flop here and not check - I don't think a random is x/r 4 way here too light, so calling would be a better option or even consider folding if the population plays tighter. Realistically for him to stick in 400 what's his range? 77,44,K7s, K with spades. You have 35% vs this range - think you misplayed this one but at this point it's just a math equation.

You'd lead the flop because it's a wet board, or just because we have an over-pair and the betting lead pre? Are you ever checking the flop, multi-way?

Flop bet or check seems fine. After it goes bet call raise that’s too much action for me with 1 pair. We got 3 guys interested, not sure how we can win, and we certainly don’t want to go all in.

so ur saying u would fold rather than 3bet or

Yes. We are facing aggressive action with two players behind, one of which is uncapped, and we have no visibility. Calling here is probably burning a lot of money, raising is a big overplay.

I bet the flop (it's moist, not wet), but if I check, I don't re-raise with a bet, call, and a raise in front of me unless my plan is to gii. So, if that was your plan, gii.

Honestly, as played I just fold the flop or flat the $160 and see what the turn brings, but that seems gross.

H is the only one who should have KK, given pf, and V1 just does not care. Even though I'm finding it difficult to give Baccarat Guy credit for a set here, and H's c-r did thin out a lot of the probably combo-draw trash, I have to fold ap.

Probably just making a "standard" cbet on this flop of 40,maybe 60, vs checking as the pfr, but I don't think it makes a bit of difference at all.

Even calling the 160 looks gross. How much of the deck are we going to have to fade?

That's really the challenge playing so deep staked. You end up with these random decisions.

You have basically top pair against someone who plays straightforward. Clearly you played this wrong given there's 4 different people here. The guy you're up against plays straight forward and check reraised and then jammed to your raise of that. What's he got there? 2P? Set? 56s? Maybe AKs though less likely since he didn't 3 bet. Most of that you get stacked with. It's a clear fold.

ps. If you're always getting 4 calls iwth a $20 open you need to make it $25 or $30

My baseline strat as the PFR in a multi-way pot with opponents in front and behind is to start by checking the flop. I want to see what my opponents do before I c-bet.

Here, based on my reads, I was expecting V2 to bet when I checked to him, and V3 to call. I was planning to check-raise when action got back to me, and I would have been happy to get stacks in with V2 or V3, though I would expect both of them to fold to a check-raise.

V1 was the wild card here. I hadn't seen enough of him to know for sure if he was capable of making a play for the pot without a made hand. But he seemed competent enough to understand the situation - he flatted from the blinds pre, with the widest possible range, the PFR checked the flop, a field caller bet, and got one flat call from another field caller.

This certainly seems like a good spot for V1 to put in a check-raise, both for value (including worse for value), and as a semi-bluff. He also seemed like he might only 3B with QQ+ / AKs, so I was putting a lot of TP + a draw and combo-draws in his range, along with sets and 2P.

His x/r sizing seemed a bit small to me, possibly indicating weakness, and also created awkwardness for me. If I called the $160, V2 would be getting 4:1 on a call, and if he called, V3 would be getting 5:1. My history with V3 has proved he's especially enthusiastic about playing pots with me when he's IP.

Folding seemed way too nitty. Flat calling would leave me in no-man's land on future streets, no matter what cards came, unless I spiked another ace. Putting in a back-raise 3B seemed like the best way to get HU with V1, and charge his draws.

His jam for almost $1k more over my $400 3B was unexpected, to say the least. I would have expected his made hands to flat call and jam a safe turn card, or even possibly go into check-call mode, since I have KK in my range.

His jam seemed like something he'd be more likely to do with the nut flush draw, a strong TP + a flush draw, or a combo-draw, not expecting me to have AA when I check flop, or believing I was semi-bluffing or over-playing a non-nutted hand, and would fold. If I had the As in my hand, it would have removed a lot of bluffs from his range, making it easier for me to muck.

So, I flicked in the call. V turned over 44, which held, and he scooped.

After the hand, V3 said he had 65, and would have turned a straight with the 3h.

Doesn't seem like I could have done much to cut my loss here. If I c-bet the flop OOP and multi-way, I'm going big, probably 3/4 to full pot. If V2 and V3 call, V1's check-raise is going to be huge, and I'd probably still call, just to see the turn. If V1 doesn't jam the turn 3h, I might.

You could do a lot to cut your losses. C-bet not too huge and fold to the check-raise. You could have easily folded the flop as played, which is what a lot of us would have done. You have one pair -- there is zero reason to go broke here, especially vs this guy: Don't think if I ever saw him 3B pre. Usually had a hand at showdown, but wasn't showing down a lot of hands.

This assumes a lot about what would have happened if I c-bet. And folding to the x/r still seems nitty, given our hand and this flop texture.

Let's say I c-bet $20, get two calls, and he x/r's to $100. At this stack depth, I still can't fold, and I'd still be concerned about the pot odds I'd be creating if I flat called, leading me to possibly raise. If I raise and he jams, it's still not an easy fold, on this board, against his range.

If he just smooth calls flop, I can get away from my hand on the turn 3.

If we didn't get stacks in on the flop, and he jammed turn, I probably would have folded, depending on how the flop action went.

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A cautious player with AK, if it gets to the flop this way, doesn't want to escalate to a point stacks get in quickly. Spr is 12.
I would range SB at sets and KXss. As such, getting stacks in with AA is overplaying.

honestly i think its a really tough hand. unsure about you not being able to cut your losses though 300 bb deep in a multiway srp

you have some weird heuristics where you seem to over fold when you're very shallow and commited based on some of your posts here and then think people are blasting off / getting way out of line in much deeper scenarios and putting it in inappropriately light. this is backwards

Doc - Remember that fish gonna fish. Yes his check raise from 40 to 160 is a tad small but that means nothing except that he doesn’t size well. He raised twice in the same betting round and is really deep - this is usually a strong hand.

Like submersible said, yeah, maybe if he has 80 bucks he yolo jams a gutter but aces start getting murky when they start piling deep stacks.

This. It might not have mattered in this particular spot but if they're calling light you should open to as much as they will call, especially with premiums.

I think the core mistake you made was thinking he wouldn't jam with a set after you 4 bet to 400. A play like this makes you seem so strong that the opponent figured he could go for full value. Slowplaying is unnecessary if your opponent is making it clear he has a super strong hand.

Tough spot tho. This specific permutation shouldn't come up often.

This is absolutely a tough one to get away from so dont feel too bad.

That being said i generally have a rule that people dont bluff much and they often dont go for value or bet as much as they should so i give people credit for big hands when they bet big until shown otherwise. And sometimes you will see someone that shows up w way overplayed stuff but i think its good to wait to see that before you dont give them credit for a monster when they bet like they have a monster.

Personally, i would cbet this flop because of how many players are in and how bad they are so i want to get value, but i will check often oop so thats fine.

Once it goes bet, call, and raise in front of you im out of there. People dont normally play their draws that aggressively especially in a 4way spot. I was in a similar situation in a SRP where i opened 5x and had 3 callers w AK and had a similar flop where it went bet, call, raise in front of me and i just folded exploitatitvely because aggressive actions from passive players are trouble.

I don't think that I like stacking off with 1 pair in a multiway raised pot for 240bbs against heavy action from someone who is mostly random to us.

I was giving him sets, 2P, KXss, AXss, AKo with 1 spade, etc. Against that range, AA is only behind 2P and sets.

If I had the As in my hand, I could take a lot of bluffs out of his range, but without the As, that's harder to do. My hand un-blocked all his KX and XXss.

First time playing with this guy, who seemed a bit split-personality - not playing many hands, but playing aggressively post-flop, yet not getting to showdown very often. I couldn't be sure he had all value, no bluffs, the way this was played, and given my own table image, which included both making big bluffs and making big laydowns.

I only post hands here when they stand out from the ordinary, situations that don't come up as often. I'm confident you'd approve of >95% of the hands I play.

If I c-bet flop for 1/4-1/3 pot, get two callers, which I'd expect from V2 and V3, and V1 check-raises, it's still a tough fold. It's also a dicey check-call in MP if he check-raises. Check-folding as the PFR with an over-pair to the board, on this flop texture, just seems way too nitty.

No matter how the hand is played, it's going to cost me a good chunk of my stack, if not all of it, when I unblock all the TP combos and all the potential draws.

We were deep. I didn't snap call. I tanked for a while, going back over all the hands I could remember watching him play, trying to see if I could find anything to support a decision.

Part of my thinking was that V saw me make some big bluffs, and some big folds, yet I hadn't seen him show down enough hands to know if he was or wasn't capable of bluffing in this spot.

I could easily see him thinking I was check-raising light as the PFR, just playing my range, and he might therefore overplay a hand like AKo with the As, or KXss, 65ss, or any AXss. I couldn't rule it out, especially given he left the table to go play Baccarat for over an hour.

I'm not saying I'd have folded 44 in his spot, but as played, I'd be concerned about being up against KK, or even just AKss, and wouldn't have jammed bottom set over a 3B after I x/r'd.

Re - the pre-flop raise sizing... it was a strange dynamic at the table, with V2 and V3. Both seemed too eager to call my raises. I'd already increased my raise size from $15, and saw that $30+ raises from other players weren't getting any action. I'm not sure making it $25 is going to get many more folds than $20, if they're calling me light based on my image, which seemed to be what was happening.

It wasn't necessarily that I didn't think he'd jam a set, per se. I was putting sets and 2P into his range, but if I'm giving him every combo of set and 2P, I'm also giving him a lot of KXss, AXss, AKo, etc. There are plenty of gambly regs who will jam that flop with the NFD or TP + a flush draw, or an OESFD.

I have an aggro, borderline wild image, whereas V's bets/raises were mostly getting folds, making me wonder if he wasn't capable of over-playing some hands I was beating, or if he might not flat call flop and jam turn if he had a set, because of all the draws in my range that would call off a flop jam, but not a turn jam if I didn't make my hand.

I don't want to be results oriented, but had I c-bet, I know V2 and V3 would have called, and if V1 wasn't in the hand, or if he didn't check-raise, V3 would have turned a straight. Yeah, I could c-bet and fold to V1's check-raise, but that seems really nitty here, or I could c-bet and just call his check-raise, or check and flat call his x/r, but if I don't 3B the flop, and V2 and V3 over-call, I'm still losing on the turn, I'm just losing to a different V.

Let's just say I c-bet the flop, V2 and V3 call, V1 check-raises, I flat call, and V2 and V3 over-call. If V1 barrels the turn 3h, MAYBE I can fold. If V3 raises, especially if V1 calls, I can definitely fold. But if V1 checks, I'm in no man's land. I guess I can check-call a single bet, or check-fold if there's a bet and a raise, but if I'm playing my range, check-raising the flop seems like a better line than c-bet-folding.

This is a fold. I would flat the first raise and see how turn/river develops.

It is absolutely nuts to cold 3bet the flop here. You are way overvaluing an overpair 300bb deep multiway.

Thanks brother. I don't feel too bad. Most of the incorrect decisions I make at the table are well-reasoned enough.

I considered folding when he jammed. Obviously he could have some sets and 2P. But it also seemed like he was capable of shoving with the nut flush draw or TP + a flush draw, or even just AKo with the As. When I'm unblocking all his TP, all his NFD's, and all his combo-draws, he could have a lot of semi-bluffs with enough equity to jam.

If he jammed with any of those hands, I wouldn't have faulted him for it. If I had KK, and he posted the hand here, people would say he should have folded to my 3B, because I have KK in my range, or maybe people say he should call, because I could be over-playing AA. If he jammed KQss, and I called, and he sucked out, I wouldn't have hated his play, or mine.

That's poker. Sometimes a guy jams with TP + a draw, and AA holds up, or doesn't. Sometimes he's jamming and it's set over set. Sometimes this, sometimes that, etc, etc, etc.

I didn't like it either, as I was pushing my stack towards him.