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Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Hero call with second pair after missed draws?

08-03-2022 , 01:20 PM
Hero (650): Aggressive image. Have a lot of history with player. Ive been in this session less than 15 minutes
Villain (1200): Solid player most of the time. He plays tight pre flop and pretty solid post flop. But is capable of bluffing and getting out of line from time to time.

OTH
Blinds 5-10
Hero has QsTs and raises to 40 on MP
Villain calls on the button and random player calls on the SB

Flop (130): KcQh4h
SB checks, Hero decides to check to balance range. I can easily get raised light if I bet by some random draws and I can do some pot control with a medium strength hand. Villain checks in the button

Turn (130): 6d
SB checks, Hero decides to bet 65 and villain raises to 150 on the button, sb quickly folds. Hero doesnt think he has much since he checked the flop, he might have some draws and think im trying to steal the pot so he wants to steal it back. The only legitimate hand he might be representing is 66. Q6 is unlikely to call pre and a K is most certainly betting a wet board

River (430): 3c
Hero checks and villain goes all in for 460.

Hero? Villain has a lot of missed draws and I really dont think he is representing any legitimate hand.
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-03-2022 , 02:25 PM
QTs isn't in my preflop raising range with a good player otb. But here we are.

I prefer to c-bet this dynamic board that favors our pre-flop raising range. We've flopped some equity at least. Are we checking TPTK, AA or even a set with a broadway sds and fd on board here? So I'm just not sure I agree with the concept that we're checking a dynamic board to "balance range". I think we might do this HU, but not multi-way. Multi-way, H just appears capped on this board.

OTT: V should only raise our delayed c-bet with a NFD, TPGK, set or two pair. H's description of V as "tight/solid" suggests he probably isn't raising a bunch of random crap. Besides, he could always just float and rep something on every h or broadway river. I can find a fold ott here, but I would have c-betted so I wouldn't get here this way.

AP We get 2-1 to call. V has every missed NFD, Jh9h, AhJx, AhTx. He also has all kinds of Khx, some KQ. We could count the combos but I think it's close. So it's player-dependent here. I could find a fold against a tight V and a call against a known floater/LAG.
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-03-2022 , 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanishmoon
QTs isn't in my preflop raising range with a good player otb. But here we are.

I prefer to c-bet this dynamic board that favors our pre-flop raising range. We've flopped some equity at least. Are we checking TPTK, AA or even a set with a broadway sds and fd on board here? So I'm just not sure I agree with the concept that we're checking a dynamic board to "balance range". I think we might do this HU, but not multi-way. Multi-way, H just appears capped on this board.

OTT: V should only raise our delayed c-bet with a NFD, TPGK, set or two pair. H's description of V as "tight/solid" suggests he probably isn't raising a bunch of random crap. Besides, he could always just float and rep something on every h or broadway river. I can find a fold ott here, but I would have c-betted so I wouldn't get here this way.

AP We get 2-1 to call. V has every missed NFD, Jh9h, AhJx, AhTx. He also has all kinds of Khx, some KQ. We could count the combos but I think it's close. So it's player-dependent here. I could find a fold against a tight V and a call against a known floater/LAG.
I checked through the solver and it says you should check this flop approx 52% of the times so I dont think its unbalanced. Checking back medium pair protects your range in the future when you miss
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-03-2022 , 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luz4ggro
I checked through the solver and it says you should check this flop approx 52% of the times so I dont think its unbalanced. Checking back medium pair protects your range in the future when you miss
I have no problem checking this flop HU, but you are multi-way. Does your solver work in multi-way scenarios? Thanks!
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-03-2022 , 08:15 PM
Grunch

Hate these spots, very hard to think about what range I have at this point in the moment. If you check the flop with some other better hands like AQ and QJ then those might be better to call with. AQ especially because you don't want to be blocking JT here. Definitely don't want to have any hearts here either.

I'd say if you are really confident in the read that he bets a K on flop then call with this hand. If you're not sure and he could check back his KJs/KTs looking for a safe turn before going for it then fold. Even then the turn raise is very suspicious for a moderate showdown value hand.

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Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-03-2022 , 08:51 PM
I'm not sure if we're supposed to open QTs from MP in a 9 handed game for 4BB with a 65BB stack. With two callers the SPR von the flop is 4.7:1 that's not ideal with hands that have very limited high card value.

As played on the turn you have to call if you think his range is draws and made hands stronger than TPTK. We're blocking the obvious two pair but also the open ended straight draw. If you call the turn, I think you have to call on that river card unless you think he's not capable of pulling the trigger.
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-04-2022 , 02:26 AM
Fold because nits rarely get out of line.
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-04-2022 , 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper6788
Grunch

Hate these spots, very hard to think about what range I have at this point in the moment. If you check the flop with some other better hands like AQ and QJ then those might be better to call with. AQ especially because you don't want to be blocking JT here. Definitely don't want to have any hearts here either.

I'd say if you are really confident in the read that he bets a K on flop then call with this hand. If you're not sure and he could check back his KJs/KTs looking for a safe turn before going for it then fold. Even then the turn raise is very suspicious for a moderate showdown value hand.

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+1 to the above ... exactly what I was thinking before reading the replies.

Pre - as someone mentioned, @ 65 bbs eff, I'd fold this hand from MP.
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-04-2022 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by avgdad
Fold because nits rarely get out of line.
I never said he was a nit. He is a capable player
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-04-2022 , 08:25 PM
I think flop check is fine.


The river problem is thinking about what hands we'd want to play this way as BTN.

66 seems reasonable. Maybe KQ/44?

On the draws, 8h7h/7h5h/6h*h? Maybe any 75?

Seems like Kh*h/AhTh/JhTh would all just bet flop, but if the later two can take this line than the former can too.


In the moment I probably shrug and call, because it feels weird and I'm not sure if I have enough better hands... but given above range it looks bad esp. as 75 got there, so we need villain to have decided not to bluff flop and then gone psycho with the same hand one street later for no reason. We do beat 8h7h/6h*h ... but I doubt that adds up to 33% of his range.
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-10-2022 , 06:41 AM
I'd rather call this with pocket 8s than with Queen-Ten.....
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote
08-10-2022 , 07:07 AM
You have "lots of history" with this villain. Does he raise the turn and shove the river with hands that can't beat SPMK more than 40% of the time? If yes, then you call. If he's a solid player that only "from time to time" bluffs or gets out of line, then you fold. You should know.
Hero call with second pair after missed draws? Quote

      
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