^ My point on PLO is that OP is clearly having trouble understanding relative hand value in multi-way pots. Based on my interpretation of what he posted, it looks like he's overvaluing 1 pair hands in 4-5way pots which is a habit that PLO will break immediately.

Problem with PLO is that it is hard to hit just a pair.

PLO may teach a novice to stop overvaluing weak part of "hit range," but it does almost nothing to what's really important in this type of game: relative hand strength.

Likely outcome of learning from PLO: H nits up like crazy. H realizes that winning in hold'em is actually a very boring task. H stops playing hold'em.

In the end, H just moves away from the problem and not actually moving forward.

You can also do this (without the PLO variance) by playing limit holdem. The payoff for getting chased down over and over is that you see (and hopefully remember) what kind of hands win multi-way pots by river (2 pair+). This will teach OP not to overplay TP multi-way.

+1

Keep this attitude. Keep getting better and eventually you will love multi-way flop games (they are among the most profitable). As you can probably ascertain winning multi-way requires a different (and sometimes contradictory) strategy from heads up.

I have played a ton of plo. But once again I am much better at the game heads up. I struggle 6 handed due to how many people see a flop

I semi read responses:

You can tweak your play and have better results, but the thing you are going to just have to do is get comfortable playing multiway pots. That hardly ever happens even at the lowest micro stakes anymore. In live games, it’s unusual to ever play a heads up single raised pot. Even if you are playing it right, the pace and low volume may take a long time to produce good results. This is a CLASSIC newb online to live conversion thread. Just know that most of us have made the transition and if you’re a good player you’ll figure it out.

I should qualify a little. I been playing live for 13 years. And online forbthebsame amount of time. Back in good old 2005 people actually folded preflop. They looked down at hand like QJ and folded . Not so today

Your variance goes up but if they don't fold post flop that's fantastic. When you have an overpair or TPTK you can make a pot sized c bet and overbet the turn and if the game is as you describe they will come along. Yeah your hand will get cracked pretty often so the key is recognizing when someone hit his draw. Most players at this level are pretty passive. If there are two diamonds OTF you bet an OP get called, a diamond hits OTT and a player switches from x/c to leading or x/r he has it. Fold.

The main skills in live 1/2 are

1) Play tight. You can't iso as much as you could online. It just doesn't work so limit your isos to premium hands.

2) Bet for value. Figure out the bet sizing to get max value when you're ahead

3) Don't pay people off. If a passive player raises, he hit his hand. Give up with most of your range. Sometimes this includes folding hands as strong as sets or straights. People just do not bluff enough especially OTR so if a scare card comes in and they make a large bet just fold.

Learning to spot tells can help a lot at this level. It isn't mandatory but it will help you spot those rare occasions when someone raises and doesn't have it.

Bluffing is a minor skill at this level. There are spots for profitable bluffing on nitty tables but in games like you describe I would almost never bluff.

As a minor note never show your hand.

This borders on a level. It's the exact opposite of this.

BTW there is a lot of terrible advice in this thread. Be careful who you listen to.

Stop worrying about thinning the field. It isn't necessary. Say you raise AQcd after 3 limps to 16 OTB and the limpers and blinds calls. It goes six ways to the flop.

Flop (96) Q97sdc (i randomly generated this)

Let's see how your TPTK does six ways against 50% LP calling ranges. You have 39% equity six ways. This is fantastic. If you have 39% equity the others have 12%. This is a great situation to make money. When they check to you bet big, like 80. Punish them if they chase with T6 or w/e. If a passive player x/r then fold.

Just keep value betting while it appears you are ahead. If you bet the flop and the turn is a J and you get x/r, then fold.

This type of game is all about betting for fat value when ahead and recognizing when your opponent hit his hand and getting out of the way. Maximize your wins minimize your losses.

I had trouble with this kind of game for a while too as I do much better heads up. But eventually I figured out it's pretty simple beating games like this. It just goes against so much of what you've probably read the strategy may seem counterintuitive or boring.

As far as hands like AXs and small PPs just limp them. SCs I would fold OOP and raise IP. They don't play well multiway in games like this where people are playing hands like Q5s. Your SCs have a lot of RIO in these games. When you do play a hand like 76ss you mostly want to make straights not flushes.

Raise premiums. Overlimp potential nut hands, and generally don't draw unless it's a nut draw. For example with 76ss draw on A54scd but not A98scd. If the price is right you can draw on the second flop but be very careful if you hit a T. Set mining should be hugely profitable in these games. Even if you raise 66 and get five calls that's not bad at all. If you win even one small bet when you hit then you make money.

Thank you. I guess this is where my problem comes in. In the past I have been able to play a profitable game without hitting cards by spotting situations to steal a lot of pots. This is not something I will be able time I 6 handed that much. This is what I am struggling with. If i get it heads up or 3 handed I am going to steal a ton of pots on flop and mostly the turn. So it looks like unjust have to hit hands to win in this type game which is kjnda depressing. I prefer to play poker and not just sit back and wait for premium hands and hope to hit them. But if that is what is the best strategy here then I guess that is what I will have to do. Generally I am able to call down alot of bluffs with my hand reading. This is obv not going to work 6 handed alot.

I hate it when people refer to FE game as "real poker." This is just as real it's just a lot different. The first thing you ever learn is betting for value. Fat value is the basis of any win rate. It's just >>> more in low stakes lol live games. There's still lots of places to steal they are just different from what you're used to. You said it's a home game. That means it's probably a similar line up every time out. The advantage of that is that you can learn your opponents whereas at a casino you really can't. Learn what makes them uncomfortable and the steal spots will make themselves apparent. Your main winners will still be the fat value spots it sounds like. I like raking a huge pot with AA more than 5 small pots with junk. Learn to love winning no matter how you do it.

I can't recall raking too many huge pots with AA (or any for that matter).

Lost a few though.

Play J3 in lp for a raise. No one will flame you for it.

PSB bet against 5 players in most LLSNL games with TPTK is a sure way of making minimum and losing maximum. Problem with this play is that you make it extremely easy and profitable to set mine against you.

"Value bet when you think you are ahead, fold when you are behind" is about as vanilla as it comes to poker, and I am sure OP had already tried and failed with such approach in this type of game. And is there a type of game that isn't about betting for max value and minimizing losses?

Lastly, I will say with certainty that having MUBS is not how you will beat this type of game. Stressing that turning lower straight with 76 is on the bottom of list of things you need to worry about in this type of game.

What is mubs?

Monsters Under Bed Syndrome...basically always fearing that you are facing the nuts no matter what.

A) I didn't say PSB,

B) This does not sound like the standard LLSNL game. If game is as LP as described then we should be pounding flops and turns for fat value when our hand reading tells us we are likely to be ahead. My point is people not folding draws is great because we can charge them a steep price to continue. If they fold to 80 into 96 then the game is not as described.

C) It's actually appropriate to be MUBSY 6 ways when a passive player raises. That's how we know TPTK or an OP is no good. That's all I'm saying. With set mining for example if an LP raises the flop or turn on a dry board just fold. They have 2p+ like 95% of the time. At this level they are not going to be bluffing much so folding to raises is appropriate. There's no need to fear being exploited.

Garick venice10 and gusmcrae have said what needed to be said. I just reiterated some things and added some minor points. I don't think drawing to low ends of straights or small flushes is a good idea without superb hand reading or live read skills. I lost a lot of money in games like this when I started playing live with non nut draws. Six ways it's just too likely you have a dominated draw. Now I crush games like this. I believe Garick said it but it's not easy to beat these kind of games but it is simple.

@OP

I prefer HU and 3 ways also as I am very good at finding those spots to bluff. Five or six ways I wouldn't try it much unless everyone looks really uninterested and you have position and you have some equity when called. These spots do show up but you shouldn't be doing like triple barrel bluffs more than maybe once every two sessions. A c bet on a dry dynamic board followed by a turn barrel when an overcard comes will often get the job done though.

I do get bored just waiting for hands so I empathize but that's really what you have to do here. There are spots for bluffs but your profit will be 90 percent from value bets.

Yep...for sure. When you sit there folding hands for two hours being card dead it gets a lot more tempting to start playing weaker hands and felt light just to see some action. Or when you finally get AK and miss the flop it's easy to just barrel off your stack in a hopeless bluff to get someone off TPNK.

Edit...previous post I said I didn't say PSB when I actually did in the one before. Whoops.

Not trying to be confusing. A literal PSB with an OP may be too much or it may not, it just depends exactly how sticky the opponents are, but I'm guessing LP home game players are pretty damn sticky and inelastic in their continuing ranges OTF. In most games I bet closer to 1/2 psb OTF to keep ranges wide but if I'm lucky enough to get a table full of stations I'll up my sizing considerably.

Boredom tilt is a *****.

Going from online to live, it really does your head in.

Now if only we could multi-table live.

I believe Galfond did it at the WSOP

With this dynamic, be more concerned with stack depth and position than you are with absolute hand strength. When effective stacks get below ~50-60BB, you can more comfortably resort to your 6 Max online strategy. Above that amount, and on a continuum, I'd say that announcing the strength of your hand OOP into 5 players costs you more and more money. As you get deeper, play less bloated pots OOP and experiment with adjusting your sizing. There will be stack sizes where you could benefit from a more deceptive range OOP and smaller open size. When I start hitting that stack depth where deception becomes more important, I adjust to playing my strong hands more passively and lower my open size, and include a few more scs than I normally would. When people start 3-betting in position you'll be able to let go of some of those weaker combos and continue with strong hands into a pot with an SPR you are more comfortable with and have control over (ie 4-bet or flatting). You will have to get more comfortable with not winning every hand with your super premiums, keep your hand strength more concealed, and since you will still have a stronger overall range than the loose passive fish behind you, you will come out ahead in the big pots Post-Flop so long as your commitment decisions are good enough. But most importantly, let them announce the strength of their hands OOP and play hands in position when you have relatively good cards and enough $ behind.

This is excellent insight and advice.

In general, as I get deeper, the less I want to play in big pots, with marginal hands OOP, especially against aggressive/good players. It's simply harder to put people on hands when stacks grow. It might be exploitable to play more passively, but I prefer the lower stress levels and lower variance. It might be tempting to start gambling more, and playing looser, and faster, and having more fun, but actually I've realized most of the time nitting it up especially OOP, even for a little bit, after a significant boost to your stack is better in the long run and allows you to make more +EV plays/bluffs as the game progresses.

I will still pound position, though, and put people to the test as the stacks get deeper.

At the end of the day, if you walk out the casino with money, you've won the most important game, regardless of how it fits in with the theory of poker. Very few people sell chips back to the casino on a regular basis. Be one of them.

Same rationale as someone who sits down with blackjack or even slot machine, because the implied meaning of "theory of poker" is that it is +EV. So if something doesn't fit in +EV, you are essentially making marginal decision and is only walking out of casino because of positive variance. That's pretty much how slot players ever "win" money from casino.

If you are constantly ignoring positive EV approaches, you won't be one of the few people selling chips back to the casino.

Bottom line, you cannot go against theory of poker (assuming it means +EV approach to the game) and expect to win in the long run. -EV adjustment because of BR constraint, state of mind, or simply lack of understanding of certain spots are all going to eat into your WR. Don't get me wrong, you could be making bunch of -EV decisions and still walk away a winner because of all the +EV decisions you make as well.

Just remember, having leaks is normal, but the more you can avoid, the better you will become.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

As someone who's built several bankrolls over the years and have never lost it back playing poker, I would say while at the beginning stages of building/rebuilding a bankroll, taking a lower variance approach and booking wins helps build confidence. When the BR swells, a person can start getting real gutsy making moves left and right. But nothing wrong with folding in marginal spots, avoiding unnecessary stress that comes from cortisol/adrenaline/aggression and waiting for more "in-the-bag" 60/40, 70/30, or 80/20 spots. Some decisions might be slightly +EV according to the theory of poker, but can be -EV for life in general. It's taken me a long time to realize this and I'm still humbled by what I don't know.

I love studying correct theoretical poker. I also love reading players and playing on instinct. Live poker is different than online poker, which relies more on theory and math. I would never make it in online poker. But I crush 2/5 live like it's nobody's business and have done well at 5/10, 5/10/20 in my limited hours. I play crazy hands sometimes that seem so opposed to what the theory of poker says is correct. I limp and raise sometimes with garbage others would insta-muck. But b/c I'm perceived as the most dangerous player in my pool, I get away with a style that few others do at these stakes. 95%+ players just dont play back (especially in 2/5) unless they have the goods, and that makes what I have in my hand less relevant than it would for others.

There are many more intangibles in live poker. That's why many online players struggle live. They're in their heads. They're used to intellectualizing and rationalizing instead of looking into souls. I see it everyday. Grinders who are all theory and play tight and by the book. They might be small-medium winners, but they'll never crush. The real crushers are intimidating because they know how to build stacks. Building stacks becomes par for the course. They're relentless in their aggression. People fold to crushers because they know they're going to have to put in more money on later streets. These theoretical, mostly math-based grinders in these low stakes games don't really understand that poker is about creating an environment where people feel like gambling and being loose and giving action.

The big winners are dominant personalities mostly. They take up space. Big winners make people play super passively against them. Big winners confuse the heck out of people and make people question every move they make against the winners. The winners rarely pay off, because people play their hands so face up against them. They know how to build pots, who's tilting, who's emotions are high, who's scared, who's antsy, who's ballsy (very few), what people's relationships are to each other.

There are so many times, when I'm in MP or LP where people behind me telegraph they are going to fold, especially when I'm in complete control of the table. I can raise almost as if I were on the BTN or CO. This isn't math. It's observation and recognizing human body language.

Nothing wrong with being math-based, but it's not enough. Basic math is enough for the most part in low stakes. It's a people's game. It just takes thousands of hours of experience. What makes people donate large amounts of money to the crushers? It's not math. It's emotions.

Anyway, this was more of a rant than anything. By the way you write, I'm sure this is all common sense.