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HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in

01-26-2013 , 04:39 PM
Coming exclusively from a limit background I am looking for clarification of a specific common situation in Hold em. I am asking this in a effort to better facilitate transition in the this variation of the game. I.e. NLHE

Flush draws do we raise them out or do we keep them in? - playing after a flop leader

OK say we are in a Live Low stakes NL game and are around 100 blinds deep.

we limp in behind another limper and the pre-flop action comes off multi-way I.e. 4-5 ways

the flop comes down giving us a flush draw.

the first pre-flop limper makes a standard size wager

In what cases do we raise and why?

IN what cases do we call and why?

E.g. Flush draws w/ overcards, Flush draws with 1 over card,
flush draws with other outs, pure flush draws

Game conditions, other considerations etc.

TIA
HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in Quote
01-26-2013 , 04:50 PM
A typical reason to raise with a flush draw is as a semibluff - we probably don't have the best hand now, so we sure don't mind if everyone folds, but if somebody doesnt fold, we can get bailed out by hitting the best hand later. The combination of our hand equity and fold equity makes this a winning play.
HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in Quote
01-27-2013 , 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf
A typical reason to raise with a flush draw is as a semibluff - we probably don't have the best hand now, so we sure don't mind if everyone folds, but if somebody doesnt fold, we can get bailed out by hitting the best hand later. The combination of our hand equity and fold equity makes this a winning play.
yes I understand the dynamics of the semi bluff
The question remains does it win more than waiting and making a hand that can win a huge pot and beat multiple players. Plus if we wait and our opponents think "draw" we can now take down entire pots when nearly ANY draw comes in.

we obviously can semi bluff off weakish hands that may pay a large portion of our future win. Since a fair share portion of every bet they put in count towards our total equity, doesnt raising allow the majority of hands to play correctly against us?

why settle for a few number of big blinds when we have the potential to win a huge number of them.?
HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in Quote
01-27-2013 , 08:26 PM
If you are raising your flush draws, it is to end the hand there. You are going to whiff on your FD two-thirds of the time. If you can take a portion of those pots down without needing to hit you draw you are going to be successful.
HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in Quote
01-27-2013 , 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by douloureux
why settle for a few number of big blinds when we have the potential to win a huge number of them.?
You're right, but the draw only comes in a third of the time. So we win extra hands (but smaller pots) when the draw doesn't come in.

The answer is that we shouldn't decide on a single general strategy to play our draws, we should play the best way depending on the situations - our opponents, position, stacks, etc.
HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in Quote
01-27-2013 , 09:24 PM
another good thing that raising the nut flush draw with multiway action is that you tend to knock out all the pair hands and may get to play a big pot against a straight draw or better a smaller flush draw.
HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in Quote
01-27-2013 , 09:26 PM
the worse the players the more often you let them all in and take a card off. as bad players will go broke when both of you hit the flush. but good players generally wont get broke unless the stacks are short.
HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in Quote
01-27-2013 , 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by douloureux
yes I understand the dynamics of the semi bluff
The question remains does it win more than waiting and making a hand that can win a huge pot and beat multiple players. Plus if we wait and our opponents think "draw" we can now take down entire pots when nearly ANY draw comes in.

we obviously can semi bluff off weakish hands that may pay a large portion of our future win. Since a fair share portion of every bet they put in count towards our total equity, doesnt raising allow the majority of hands to play correctly against us?

why settle for a few number of big blinds when we have the potential to win a huge number of them.?
In general, the semi bluff should be employed when it will carry with it significant fold equity, and that equity + your fold equity results in you winning a decent sized pot relative to your current hand strength.

It is also a tool that should roll into our overall game for deceptive and balancing purposes. If we only bet or raise when we are strong we become pretty exploitable and allow our villains to play perfectly against us.

The next component to your question is: When should we prefer to win on a semibluff instead of drawing and potentially stacking our villains for big money?.

Well, in order to stack our opponent our opponent would have to have a strong hand right or be a calling station? So, if our opponent has a strong hand or is a calling station then a semi-bluff isn't going to work against them right?

So, we would want to draw in situation where we have some a combination of some of the following:
#1 know our opponents are strong
#2 there is a strong potential to overflush a known drawer
#3 we have GREAT implied odds 20:1 or better
#4 opponent(s) is a station and will pay us off
#5 opponent(s) mistakenly give odds for us to draw (either direct or combo of direct and implied)
HELP !! do we raise em out or keep em in Quote

      
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