I had been at this table for a couple hours, so I had some reads on the two opponents in this hand.

Villain 1 is in his 30's, middle Eastern, and generally loose/passive. He has a wide open-limping range and usually calls if there's a raise preflop. Has shown down hands like 82s, K8o, and called a raise with A7o. Starts the hand with about $215.

Villain 2 is in his 50's, white guy, and significantly tighter, though also somewhat passive. He has an openlimp/fold-to-raise range. Generally doesn't continue postflop unless he has a significant piece. Limp/called my iso from UTG, and x/c a flop c-bet on a two-tone K-high flop, then donked out when an ace turned, giving two flush draws. I folded KTo to the donkbet, though that may have been a mistake. Starts the hand with about $340.

I'm a 30's white guy playing TAG, usually opening for raises if I'm playing, and not showing down often. Starts the hand with about $315.

Two folds, Villain 1 limps in HJ, CO and BTN limp, Villain 2 completes in the small blind, Hero checks his option in the BB with 6 5

(Pot: $10) Flop J 6 5

V2 checks, I bet $10, V1 calls, CO and BTN fold, V2 calls

A straightforward bet for value, and to charge draws. I don't know if I'm 3betting if I get raised, because I don't want to put a ton in on an unraised pot, but when they both flat I feel like I'm solidly ahead here.

(Pot: $36) Turn J 6 5 T

V2 checks, I bet $25, V1 calls, V2 calls

Would be kinda gross if I got raised here vs the described opponents, but again I feel like this is a straightforward bet for value and to charge draws

(Pot: $108) River J 6 5 T 6

V2 checks...

V1 has about $180 behind, I have about $280, and V2 slightly covers.

How much to bet here? Am I folding if I get raised? Would going for a crai be better than leading out myself?

Comments on all streets appreciated.

All streets look good. Bet ~2/3 pot for value, call a raise. Do not attempt to CRAI. Too much chance it checks through, imo.

Both are pretty passive so I'm leading the river for $60 just hoping to get a call. Everything looks good to me.

I’m probably betting $35 instead of $25 on the turn; the described villains will not fold significantly more often.

On the river, I probably am going big since the only way I’m getting called is if they think I’m bluffing. Just bet at least $75 and let them surprise you with what they call with.

Agree w/ everyone else. Go ~$75. All else good.

No resistance on a draw heavy board, so we're likely targeting a 1pr hand.

I'd go smaller, $55, unless we feel V2 will station those type of hands.

I posted this hand because I feel it's important to point out, especially at 1/2 or 2/5, that against either villain, the fact that they're so passive means they have a very elastic river calling range. If they're gonna call a $50-$75 river bet, they'll probably also call an overbet shove. So why not rip it in and get paid sometimes, instead of worrying about if our sizing was correct.

When the river came out, I counted to 17 in my head, went all in, and Villain 1 did eventually call. He mucked, so I didn't see what it was, and Villain 2 snap folded.

Shoving on the river if you don't know a lot about the villains and you hold the effective nuts is classic advice from Harrington on Cash. Appreciate the reminder.

Nah, we need to bet bigger than this. They’re mostly capped at one pair, so betting big with the range + nut edge will work well. Seems like OP went for it, which I’m happy to see.

The one thing I will add is to consider check raising flop sometimes. Lots of hands that can stab this board in these guys ranges and it makes getting all the chips in on a good runout much easier.


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The overbet is definitely worth a try sometimes, as it can look bluffy and it doesn't need to work very often to generate more EV than the value sizing. I generally prefer to try it when an obvious draw that I can still beat came in, though.

I definitely wouldn't advocate a flop c/r attempt against passive Vs on a wet board. They'll check back a ton, either to draw cheap themselves or out of fear that you'll c/r semi-bluff and put them in a tough spot.

We can always make up for value later with overbets if need be. We are also 5 ways with 3 left to act, someone is stabbing here at a very high rate. There’s a reason why I call stabbing at a limped pot the “fish power move”, and it’s because fish love to do it


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I guess I can get on board with posting something to make a point but idk this whole post feels weird and closer to a bbv hand.

Also what you described is inelastic. Elastic means they will fold more to a larger bet

Mostly interested to hear why people like donking the flop. Transitioning back to live after a year online and I’m c/r this flop always - but I do recall leading in these spots being a thing. Don’t the Qs and draws always give us a bet on the flop if we check?

No. Passive live fish do not bet their draws reliably at all. They will pretty reliably bet a good TP on a wet board, though.

And I disagree with jdr's assertion that "we can always make up for value later with overbets if need be." If a draw comes in, it will kill our hand or our action, and if it doesn't come in, few Vs will call a turn overbet with a draw.

Are you balancing at all here - do you ever lead with a weak hand? I feel like I get away from a lot of tricky spots when a rec leads from the EP on a wet flop and I can just peg them on 2p+, obv not playing against myself though

I generally balance at LLSNL only against Vs who have shown an ability to adjust. I definitely don't balance against LPs.

I thought elastic meant if they'll call a big bet, they'll also call a shove,

and inelastic meant they'll call a small bet but fold to a big bet

Like how a very elastic rubber band can stretch far, and an inelastic rubber band will break if it's stretched too far

Garick, I’m not sure what lineups you’ve played, but stabbing orphan pots is practically as common as limping in to begin with. Checks often mean “I don’t have anything”. Unblocking top pair makes this a great combo to start accelerating pot growth with a check raise


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Elastic means it will change. Inelastic means it's static (unchanging)

So when applied to a calling range it's either a range that doesn't change based on bet size (inelastic) or a range that does change based on bet size (elastic)

https://upswingpoker.com/snowball-winnings/amp/

Term #2 and #3 (if link gets deleted just google upswing snowball winnings)

I've played LLSNL all over the country and only found that to be common in really Laggy games, or in LP games in the NE and in Vegas. And even in those places it's more common on ragged boards than drawy ones

Bet 60. Never folding.

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This

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My points are only minor. In a small pot On a board where it’s easy for someone to have a piece you can get away with over betting the flop. They’ll be “in elastic” in their calling frequency. When they don’t have much you squeeze out a few more bucks. When they do have something or improve it makes it easier to get the money in