Hero: BB (5500)
V1: UTG+2 (1600)
V2: UTG+3 (1500)

I am running over the table, made some big bluffs and thin value bets. V1 is a young guy, seemed to play abcish, got down to 500 and didn't rebuy. V2 is an older man, who has been playing quite aggressively postflop. He raised a lot of flops, likes to alway protect his hand if he thinks it's good.

5 limpers, I check 23o in bb.

(60) Flop: 2 8 3
I bet 45
V1 calls
V2 makes it 150 (based on his bet sizing and my blockers, my read was that he doesnt have a set. I expect him to raise bigger with a set, he shouldn't have any 2 pairs either.)
I call
V1 calls

(510) turn: Ts

I check, v1 checks, v2 bets 300

Hero?

Um, I accidentally saw your post on my way to the high stakes LHE forum, but I'm unclear (undoubtedly b/c I'm not a NLH player) what the question is. I'm hoping it's only about bet-sizing--not whether you're good here (clearly you are, and clearly you want the action from both players). So raise pot, no? XO

Do you have the 3 by any chance? If not, V2 could easily have something like A3, since sets are unlikely due to limpers/your blockers.

I think this is always a raise, since you know your hand is good the majority of the time, plus there are quite a few rivers can scare/counterfeit your hand (T, 8, maybe A, any ). There's also another player behind you, so you can never call here and let them draw with decent odds. Are you ever considering folding in this spot?

The way I see it, it's unlikely that you're behind here. Plus you mentioned that V2 is playing quite aggressively postflop, so he can have a mere A8 type hand.

Honestly I wasn't sure what to do. I considered all 3 options. I felt like stacks were a bit awkward, and maybe a bit deep to stack off. I thought that if I push, all worse hands will fold, and all better will call, and that's not really a desired result. Also v2's turn bet surprised me a bit, I wasn't sure if he would bet an 8, or 99 like that, so the likelihood of him having me beat increased a lot with his turn bet. So the only reason to raise was to push out the likely flush draw, but I wasn't putting any more money if the flush hit, so that didn't concern me much.

Calling was weird bcs I would have no clue what to do on the river. And folding seemed too weak.

I call hoping that if the flush misses, it would get checked through.

River: offsuit K
I check, v1 checks, v2 ships

Fold?

Call.

Only 3 likely hands you're behind, 22, 33, TdKd, and his frequent flop raises seems to indicate a lot of semi-bluffs.

With 6 players on flop, raising T8 or K8 seems unlikely. He could also be value betting Kdxd.

One of the reasons I don't mind the call on the turn, besides pot control, is it could induce a bluff on the river vs overly aggressive players, so a call on turn should never be folding a blank river. If you could consider folding this river than shoving turn is better.

I like trying to C/R much more than leading on flop. The problem with leadin is that when you get flatted (which is usually and sometimes by multiple players) You're OOP with a vulnerable hand that's rarely comfortable getting much money in OTT or OTR. With your hand I want to get more $$ in on the flop and shrink the SPR for future streets and I think a C/R is the best way to do that. When you lead and get raised your hand is generally too weak to 3B so C/R gets the max amount of $$ that you want to get in while also thinning the field and putting marginal hands in a worse spot.

I shove turn. You're usually good and the only rivers I'm comfortable calling a big bet on are a 2 or 3. You're right that it only functions as a protection bet and that villain never folds better and rarely calls worse but I think that shoving is still better than the alternative. All of the hands that villain folds will have 20%+ equity & implied odds vs you so you shouldn't mind making him fold those.

Fold river. I know that sounds like I'm contradicting myself when I say shove turn and fold river when river is a brick but against the old man "raise to protect my hand" types I'm guessing his betting range on turn consists of a lot of TPGK, TT, 99 type hands and he will check all those hands OTR. OTR I expect these kinds of guys to be much more polarized so unless you've seen him running big bluffs, I'd fold.

If your read OTF is that he doesn't have a set, why are you not 3-betting flop with a vulnerable hand MW?

I would have made it $400 otf.

As played I would lead turn to get value from over pairs and charge draws. As played I would call, I think c/shoving is over playing it and folding is too weak since we are somewhat underrepped.

yeh id 3b flop

3B on flop sets Hero up for a shove against most of villains range which hero may not be able to call even though he's still probably ahead of most of villains range.

Hand 0: 39.575% 39.52% 00.06% 17996 26.50 { 32o }
Hand 1: 60.425% 60.37% 00.06% 27491 26.50 { 33-22, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, 6d5d, 5d4d }

Hero is ahead of 5 of 7 hands but still well behind range. At best hero has neutral equity and is well behind vs a shove. Raising does get some weaker draws to fold but I think it's a minority of V2s range. Since V1 call is likely FD, I think you can discount weaker draws from V2s range.

3 results of 3B on flop:
-winning a moderate pot probably vs small % of villains range.
-losing a large pot with 3B/F
-committing 160 BBs when behind range
clearly -EV overall.

V2 is clearly on a draw or better hand. In the case of villain having a set, all-in on flop is same result as call/call. By calling flop, villains range loses a lot of equity on a blank turn but hero saves a lot if d hits. He also picks up equity from V1.

Comparing call vs 3B scenario on turn:
If d hits turn:
-Hero loses a small pot he could have protected on the flop.
-Hero saves 120 BBs vs monster draw
-Hero saves 120 BBs vs set.
If a Blank hits turn:
-Hero equity doubles vs weak draws
-Hero equity doubles vs big draws
-Hero is still saving money vs a set.
-Hero has picked up equity from V1 call.
If Villain hits str8 or 2 pair.
-Those draws results in same since they would need to be part of combo draws that never fold flop.

Clearly in much much better shape with call vs 3B on flop for any card on turn.

Good analysis, I was thinking among similar lines on the flop. As played, what would you do on the turn? I think turn is a ship, and that's where I ****ed it up, but I may be result oriented

raise turn, call river

The only raise I can make on the turn is an all in, right?
Also, can you elaborate on why you think I should be calling this river.

think your range is a little tight for villan but yeh your right - didnt have my pokerstove handy to plug in the numbers.....

Stack sizes are too awkward for any non-AI raise, so yes I believe that's the only raise you can make.

Do you think V2 is limping 82 and 83 pre? Is villain the type that would play any draw aggressively and blindly fire bombs away on all remaining streets? River is close but without an exceptional read on V2 you hand is in bad shape. He's not value betting worse at this point. Also, V1 calling the turn should make you lean toward folding the river. I think I'd play it the same way though.

An argument can be made for shoving turn if you think V2 is playing most 8x hands this way on the flop and turn. A lot of live players do but a decent player won't.

I really doubt it, he was folding many hands pre, and wasn't totally loose.

I'm not sure, first time playing with him, but based on stereotypes I had to guess no (he is an older guy).

Thanks, I appreciate it.

I think shoving turn is fine.
-The board is wet
-V1 is likely drawing and V2 is still drawing more often than set.
-It also protects you from oddball 2 pair type outs that you have to pay off.
-It prevents some mistakes on the river.

My personal preference is call turn call blank river but it's specific to V2 image therefore subjective.
-My main reason is I just think that a player with V2s image will bluff a whiff more often than hitting a draw.
-If a diamond hits when you were already beat, it saves you money.
-If a diamond hits that you could have faded with a shove, its bad but it's still less expensive than shoving into a set.
-Shoving turn doesn't get better hands to fold or weaker hands to call.
-Calling prices in V1 but I don't think that's as bad as it seems.

-Allowing V1 to draw when V2 has a set doesn't matter.
-when V2 is on a draw, they will often be sharing outs as well as holding each others outs so on average, the outs don't increase as much as normal.
-Allowing 3 players to the river when you have position adds a little protection against players trying to rep danger cards.
-With position you may have an option to rep the river yourself. It's marginal since you have showdown value but it's an option.

I was oop in bb

The range was for a 4 bet shove, not his 2 bet range. Also I think that given 6 players to the flop, action from 2 players and 3 players behind, It's tough to credit V2 2 betting 1 pair or weaker draws. Also some non nut combo's may be trying to get it heads up. Of course it's just a 2nd hand read so obviously I could be wrong.

I failed to notice this before. I'm now thinking a call is much better than shoving the turn.

turn is probably a ship.. c/c turn and riv seems weird since he can't have air; if hes drawing you price him, and it makes your decision alot easier.

as played.. he could be semi bluffing the whole way.. or he could have the 810 or better; impossible to know.. so call and hope imo given pot odds

Just curious, results?

Or did you fold the river?

Normaly I would fold but given villians image I call pretty quick. I would have c/r flop though. You really don't want to play this multiway. This may dissuade villian from 'overprotecting' his hand, but I think this gives you a much higher % to win since a lot of leads will get you multiple callers with a wide variety of hands that will either kill your action or lead you to vtown yourself.

+1 -- additionally I would say a call would shut down most all of his one pair hands on the river (i.e. i think the river may be a check fold)

Also, what position did villian 2 limp from and how many limpers were in front? Has he been limping all his hands pre or raising at all? An utg limp adds a lot of overs to his range here.