Just saw results and his little speech.
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yea, hes setting you up by losing hundreds of dollars spewing in the hopes that he can pick up big pair over big pair. puhleasse

I stand by the opinion that guys who are trying to get you will show up with worse here. Dont listen to the bragging of fishcakes... he won money so hes a genius... a pretty common tale.

This is so important to realize...

I play strictly Motor City and Mgm.

He didn't "outplay" you. He managed to get you all in with his QQ vs. your JJ on a non-paint flop after you put 1/2 your stack in PF without any real plan or clear thinking.

You owned yourself, in part due to all of the extraneous noise in your head about your potential net gain/loss for the session and your strong, emotional reactions to the Villain.

Right, he didn't outplay you so much as tilt you into overvaluing JJ. You also lost a lot of value with your set against a spewy, bluffy villain. Must trap morons like this and look past the fact they're winning a bunch of smaller pots ans focus on getting them to lose the ones where they put in their whole stack. At least you know now he'll probably stack off pre with queens

LotGrinder, the thing we have to realize is that if you've been the one whose been 3betting him light or 'playing back at him' he is most likely going just play back at your 3bets when he picks up a hand. At 1/2 players 4bet range is strictly QQ+ without reads and AKo/JJ+ with reads most of the time unless a maniac can spaz 200 bb with 1010.

Our Villain had plenty of time to 4bet you if you've been 3betting him on and off like above poster said. When he 4bets you to 200 PF this is NEVER a bluff in my opinion, and like I stated in my response on page 1.

So I have to ask you, if he just jams all in PF instead of a 4bet to 200, are you calling with your JJ?

IF NOT, why are we calling here to just insta ship flop when we know hes doing the same because he wants to play for stacks?

He's made.

First of all, this is good advice to yourself. Yes, you may get bluffed off JJ every once in a while but it will be the exception not the rule.

Second, if you know that your play deteriorates after X amount of time, you have to get it through every last neuron of your brain that every additional hour you play past X is costing you money. Now, if winning and losing is not important to you and you simply play to have fun and are willing to play until you are out of money for the night, that is not an issue. But this CLEARLY is not your case. Winning matters to you (which I completely respect - don't get me wrong) so you need to make one more +EV decision. Get up and leave. Staying too long is the same as playing ATC against any size raise.

Third, I think that this was an incredibly avoidable spot. Not the hand itself (although it is a snap-fold to the 4bet) but the situation overall. Whether he is good or not, V is making the game difficult for you. Is the game normally difficult for you? How often do you encounter a player like this V in your room? Once a month? Why are you working so hard to beat him when there are plenty of other tables in the room that do not have him at them? You can be pretty sure that any table you move to will not have an annoying LAG at it who has clearly gotten under your skin. Move, and be the boss somewhere else.

Cliffs - Don't stay too long and don't stay at tables with difficult players.

Great points.

TY.

Agree.

His overall rudeness, table talk, and little speeches got to me when I was stuck in a long session.... I didn't see the hand clearly... and I should have found a fold as a big 4bet was involved.

Hands like this really upset me because I feel like I KNEW THE RIGHT PLAY.

I just failed miserably to execute.

I hate failing at anything. Unfortunately, poker is a game that gives you so many chances to fail to execute in small or in this case, BIG ways.

205bb botched play....

That's my flight to Las Vegas for WSOP month.

+1

On the surface... do you really wanna get it AIPF with JJ here? There's better spots, surely. Also, your 3bet could have been more like $45 and accomplished the same thing no?

sounds like a high variance spot to me. would he do this with 10s or less. either youre flipping for 800 or your cooked it sounds like. I'd prefer a smaller 3 bet 35ish that prices in his J10s and hands you dominate that you want to play against post flop.

In the heat of the moment, I was blinded into thinking his range was any pocket pair, Aq+, or random hand bluffs.

After thinking about the hand/posting here.

I am now sure his 4betting range is like 99% of players QQ+/Ak+ with maybe scattered JJ or 1010s (but very rare.)

Also, I got this guy to call my $45 3bet once, then C/F flop.

So, I figured this time I would just go for more value and was looking forward to another C/F flop.

Didn't happen for me.

agree. Don't 3bet pre if you're not ready to get it in. Given the dynamics of the table I'm shoving here.

Thats funny. I was going to ask this same question b/c I play only about once a month at THR and I frequently run into this exact type of player.

This is a great hand and I'm glad you posted it. Not because of the results, not because of any mistake(s) made, not because of the amount of money won or lost. It's great because you're thinking about it a lot.

And that's what's important. Next time a similar situation comes up, you'll have this experience and a lot of forethought to apply.

Separate note: think about range manipulation. There's a good video you can google in two seconds and some threads on 2p2, too.

but is he black?

Yes. And not just he but them. Played with more than one player who fits that description exactly.

I really don't like this player type as they seem to kill the mood at the table and make things uncomfortable for the fish, donks, regs, etc, etc....

Usually I can lighten any mood at the table, but with this guy it was impossible.

It sounds like v's demeanor changed in three ways, the 4-bet the verbal declaration and quite probably his body language was perfectly still. Those three things would particularly pay more attention in a hand. Also agree with the folk who advise quitting at 6 hrs. Maybe 5.

Hey LotGrinder,

This really wasn't about the villain, it was about you. You got into an ego battle with him because you didn't like him and it caused you to play some crappy poker based on emotion rather than logic. I know because I used to do this all the time. I would target the table captain, or the biggest stack, or the guy I thought was the best player on the table and then I'd try to out play them.

If you were playing with the mindset that your the best player on the table, you'd be looking at this guy just like everyone else and figure out how to make the most money from him. You'd also be focusing equally on the rest of the table because there are 7 or 8 other players at the table and it sounds like from from your description they were calling raises from the villain and folding on the flop when they missed, even when they knew he was bluffing. You could make a lot of money doing exactly was he was doing if you were paying more attention to them instead of focusing on only one player.

To be honest you had the chance to win a big pot with the set but you decided it was more important to jam a 200 bet down his throat on the turn and show him who's boss instead of making a bet that he can call. I know it would suck if he rivered you, and because of the ego thing you didn't want to let that happen. But if he did have the flush draw, two of his outs give you the boat and you could stack him. Also, he could have had a top pair hand that rivered two pair or 3 of a kind and you could have stacked him. If the river bricked you could have made a ghey bet of 20 bucks or so and see if you could induce him to bluff.

I think making the decision with the JJ based partly on being up or down if you win is a bigger leak that you think as well. You're making another decision based on emotion rather than the facts presented. I play in a different area than you so your results might be different, but a 4 bet on a 1/2 table with deep stacks is 95% Aces or Kings and 5% Queens and other stuff.

Your focus should be 100% on making good decisions and playing your best poker. If your focused on getting even for a session, or on showing a guy you don't like who's boss, it's taking your focus away from your goal. If you have a session and you quit down a few bucks but you played well, no big deal. If you play poorly trying to get even, even if it works once in a while, it doesn't work.

Thanks for the thought out/good response.

I've gotten lots of great advice in this thread.

I play with a player occasionally almost EXACTLY like this in a Fl cardroom. And before I got to results I was thinking, he's setting you up. Thats the whole point of his flashes, his bluffs, his talk. As someone else said, he had folded to 3bets before, but here he took a stand. The verbal "make it $200" is further proof, he is pounding his chest, threatening your ego.

I'm not sure about your guy, but the player here is a winning player, for these very reasons. I wouldn't label him off as the donkey some posters are calling him.

He may be very high variance, but he gets paid off in obviously bad spots.

Also, the only time I sit at his table is when I want to be entertained. He's not rude like your guy, its hard to explain but he flashes big bluffs and whatnot and everyone laughs (except for the opponent in the hand obv)

The fish love it, he seems like an insane gambler. He still antagonizes and everything else like your guy, but in a friendlier way. Still it gets under peoples skin and they always make a stand at the exact wrong time.

But, as I said, I don't worry about him, bc i don't sit at his table unless I want entertainment or a challenge for the night, but if I'm doing that I do it from my "fun poker" bankroll and not my "work poker" bankroll (yes I have two)

I would fold as played. But I prefer a call PF. I like playing {JJ} heads up, in position, and against a range I CRUSH.

If I did 3bet, I would have sized smaller. Probably $45-50.

When you say:

To me this means the villain is frustrated because he is waiting to get a hand strong enough beat your stack-off range. Note, he didn't call the $200 with his flush draw. That's important: he is waiting.

Look, a lot of people play who play LLSNL are very aggressive preflop when bet sizes are small, ~8bb. But many of these people tighten way up OTT and OTR, when bet sizes reach ~60bb+. Some super aggressive players make a lot of money at LLSNL because regs don't respond correctly to this style of play:

• Players who are very aggressive PF are not always aggressive OTT/OTR.

Also, I prefer a bet of ~$65 OTT with your set, rather than over-betting $200.

You say:

Don't think like this. Poker is just one long session. You are not even for the session or going to be up $320 for the session. You are up in the session whatever you are up since you started playing poker on day one.

Back to the hand. Here is something to think about. Your villain is putting in $185 to win your $65, his $15, the $3 blinds, and the $6 limpers. That's a total of $185 to win $89. As a stand alone bet, his raise is +EV if you fold 68% of the time or more.

This is the key number. If he is bluffing you. And that's a BIG if. If he is bluffing you, you need to fold 68% of the time or more for his bluff to be "a good bluff".

Let's examine this. Let's look at a 3-betting ranges for you.

Range #1: {JJ+, AK}. This range contains 40 combos. If you only continue with {QQ+}, then you would be folding only 55% of the time. This means your villain is not exploiting you if you fold {AK, JJ}. This is very important if you think, or are afraid, villain would bluff any two cards here. Bluffs are only good, if you are willing to fold enough of your range to make the bluff +EV. In this case, if you are raising {JJ+, AK}. But 5-betting {QQ+}, a 4-bet bluff to $200 does not exploit you, in and of itself.

Additionally, if you only continue with {KK+}, then you are folding 70% of the time. This is much closer. This does allow the villain to bluff any two cards. However, the bluff has a stand alone EV of only $6.80.

Now, if you are 3-betting to $65 wider than {JJ+, AK}, and you are only continuing with {KK+}, then you are exploitable. Then your villain CAN profitably bluff to $200 with any two cards. HOWEVER, this villain is almost certainly not bluffing any two cards here. In fact, he probably only has value in this range.

So, anyway, as played I would fold. But I prefer a call PF. I like playing {JJ} heads up, in position, and against a range I CRUSH.

If I did 3bet, I would have sized smaller. Probably $45-50.

Also, I prefer a bet of ~$65 OTT with your set, rather than over-betting $200.

And remember, poker is only one long session.

Here is a challenge to you. Don't cash out. Only color up. See how long you can last like that.

It's like a challenge to live poker players.