Yes please. I liked this discussion

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No I wouldn't 3bet pre. I didn't comment on what I would do against the 4bet.

Ok I decided, I would ditch the JJ. I'm not going to stack off pre and calling is meh since I suspect villain to play the flop very aggressive. Which leads to making a mistake with JJ.

Now if villain had some type of fundamentals we can proceed in a different manner postflop. I would attack plenty of boards and will be protected by my actions.

Especially on locked down boards. Basically boards we can bluff and rebluff since the board is so strong and its rare to flop a huge hands. It works a little bit vs unknowns who are on the tighter side. But I wouldn't try it vs a llsnl lag, especially a spew monkey, since they are very sticky.

Due to the fact that I believed villians range was any pocket pair, AQ+, and a slight chance of COMPLETE AIR....

I did decide to flat call the $200 with the intention of calling any bet on the flop as I was sure he was going to shove every bit of his range.

I didn't 5 bet shove because he's never folding any real hand. Me 5 bet shoving would be taking the chance of folding out his air and not getting the rest of it on the flop.

Turns out that villian 100% outplayed me in the hand.

Villian lead out for the remainder of my stack on a 2/7/10 flop, I called, and at the end of the hand he tabled pocket queens.

When I folded my jacks he said "I been setting you up all night, I got you."

I replied, "if you've been setting me up all night to take my chips, you accomplished it, nice hand, well played."

He said nothing and just stacked his chips. I decided to call it a day.

Perhaps this villian is a worthy opponent?

Only time will tell, I hope to play against him again.

Is this more proof that even maniacs/aggros 4 betting range at 1/2 is always QQ+/Ak?

Wow, that's crazy for him to tell you that. I believe him.

It definitely sounds like something a black guy would say.

"I set emmmm up" lmao.

Like I said, I am interested to see more/learn more about this villian.

He was owning the table, I was the only one giving him trouble.

Everyone else was folding all but monsters to him.

I was only person attacking his raises and looking him up in spots I thought were fishy.

The only thing that threw me off about this villian was he was making $7-$12 raises from ALL positions.

He wasn't just trying to own it from LP.

I wouldn't so much tango with him. Unless you have a huge hand.

Just follow his lead. One thing I do good is I can copy people's plays. So say I see villain keep owning a certain guy. Ill start breaking the plays down. Learn from his reads and perception(yeah I do that without actually asking him). Then ill pull that same move on the same villain. I do this a lot, its one of the reasons why I was a good gamer. Despite what strategy I had, most people can't defend their own strategies, or have problems vs another persons strategy.

Maybe that's it, start playing back at him. You know have a tell, his verbal bets are the nuts. Look at situations he is having problems with. Just gotta get into his head more.

You're a donkey, LG.

I'm villians fish.

I have only seen this villian a few times in the casino and I have NEVER seen him cash out a rack of chips.

That's why this hand has messed with me for a 3-4 days now.

fold & immediately cash out ainec

So, in all honesty, on a grading scale of A-E.....

How bad was my play in this hand?

I appreciate all thoughts.

I don't watch poker on TV, you guys are my poker idols/heroes because you play the EXACT level I play at and beat the game.

It's such a challenge to learn how to have an A-game and be on it ALL the time, I have the utmost respect for you all.

OP, you don't live in the Tampa area do you? That would be hilarious, cause I know this guy if so.

The hand is actually pretty typical, the leak is not being able to quit before becoming tilted enough to play it like that.

I mean, it's not the sort of leak you can analyze and say "yeah that was dumb, I won't do that again". When you get that tilted, you don't think, and then you do things you know not to do.

No. I live in Detroit. I believe I heard the dealer say "settle down Q" to the guy once or something like that.

True.

I have discovered that I can play stuck fine for the first 3-4 hours, but past that point my play starts deteriorating.

The only time I find myself limping and then calling raises OOP with Axs, suited broadways, and SCs is when I am in the 4th hour+ of a session and down.

I'm not calling ALL raises, just a few, but that FEW, is WAY WAY worse than the 0 I am calling when on my a-game/not stuck.

This hand really upset me because it's my belief that even crazy players 4bet range is QQ+/Ak...

Yet, because I was down 6 hours into a session and a little tilted, I looked for every reason to play for stacks with JJ against a 4bet, when I could have just auto folded.

I deteriorated into a fish mindset.

LotGrinder, which casino are you going?

For the question, I think flatting is horrible, it is either fold/shove situation since he already bet half of eff stack size. Even if you think he is bluffing he is gonna call with your shove with any 15$ opening range.

However, forget about his 4bet bluffing range now, since it is quite small % at this moment. The important question here is whether he is capable of doing this with BOTH TT and AK. If you believe this, 4bet shove, if you think he is not doing this either with TT or AK, you have to fold. With JJ vs TT+ or JJ vs (JJ+ and AK), we have about 35% equity and it is clear fold 200bb deep. my shoving range would be QQ+, AKo, AKs.

Unless you have seen him doing this light (If you have seen him 4bet bluff 200bb this quick, you can go ahead and get it in), it would be quite marginal spot even if shove is +ev. Reduce varience in this case imo.

Its not that bad. You prob should not be 3 betting JJ to fold to a 4B. Calling is meh. He bet half his stack. I would prefer a call with AA and KK. But anything else is shove or fold.

At 1/2 a 4 bet is super strong usually. That's why JJ is usually played like TT. When u play higher u see a lot more light 4 betting. I got 5 bet shoved with A8o today at 5/10.

Let him ramble on...ignore it. Eventually one of the dealers "who's got some balls" will take care of it or have mgmt. take care of it, I would think. Where I've seen guys like this, if the dealer or mgmt. doesn't jump on it, I've seen one of the players lay into him or complain and that usually takes care of it. My experience with that crap, so far. I'm sure one of the veteran guys knows more about these situations.

Hey Lot,
Interesting Villain. I saw one just like that last night. He might as well been "King Kong" pounding his chest but this Villain was 3betting and shoving with ridiculous hands, such Q6 or 95, just to prove he couldn't be pushed around and he said so too!
As it was, he finally got caught twice and got busted both times and he just bought in all over again.

So as I'm reading your post, I was thinking about this guy and thinking your guy was just trying to make a point in much the same way.

So I was thinking shove over the top of him but as I read on, the other guys are absolutely right, as I'm learning too and they're right...you can't get all whipped up into the moment.

Bottom line with these guys (except for my guy last night), they usually don't have the "nuggets" to pull off a 4bet without a strong hand.

It's all about making good decisions vs. how much money will I have or not have if I do this or do that.

Keep Rockin Lotgrinder!!

Z

3 betting JJ and folding it to a 4bet is perfectly acceptable at 1/2 Live no limit.

i think stacking off 200 BBs is major -EV in the long run. see it happen all the time, though. people can't fold and get stacked because they have an overpair against an aggressive player. guess what - they get hands too.

also, lot, perhaps you should max your sessions out at 6 hours ... just pick up and go. doesn't matter if you're down $90 or up $900 ... some nights, being down only $90 is a win. like you said, you were stuck $300 and got it back to $410. you can play tomorrow or next weekend, depending on your schedule. i mean, we'd like to think we can beat this game every night we play it against these fish, but sometimes, the cards just don't comply.

Easy ship for me. There is far too much talk that we need to respect a guy's movment regardless of how tilted/steamed up/ out to get us he is. Idisagree.

A few months ago a guy who I never saw 4 bet once in 4 hrs 4 bet me me a flashed a 3 after several comments that I was raising too much. When guys are trying to get you, playbook goes out the window for them IMO