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Hand at 1/2 Hand at 1/2

12-14-2013 , 03:14 PM
Ive been at the table for about an hour, haven't been too active. Lost a decent size pot with set over set then took down a $125 pot when I turned a flush, about even.
V1 ($250) younger 25ish year old bought in with $100 and re bought two times. He won a big pot with two pair when he jammed the river on a JT976 board with J10. He is aggressive and will over value hands. I saw him c bet ship 60% of his stack with AK on a low board and lose to a pocket pair.
V2 ($300) maybe mid 40's weak player, will chase any draw. Doesn't know pot odds, pot size.
V3 ($200) older gentleman has been playing a wide range, saw him lose a large pot with AJ on a A high board to AK. Has been tilting, saw him raise to $15 with A7o
Heros stack ($300)
Hero is on the button with 810 and calls $2 after the entire table limps. BB checks and we see a flop of
8107
BB bets $15 V1 raises to $35 V2 calls the $35 and V3 tanks for a minute seems like he doesn't know what to do, he looks like he wants to raise but just calls the $35 and it gets to hero....? There's now $136 in the pot.
Hand at 1/2 Quote
12-14-2013 , 03:28 PM
Wow pretty gross jam or fold. Problem is you have little room to improve and there are tons of bad cards that can come. I suppose jam but honestly I may fold because you don't want to go broke in a limped pot, even with top 2 mainly because of how wet the flop is.
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12-14-2013 , 03:36 PM
This is a classic example why calling to see a cheap flop isn't always the right move. In absolute terms, you hit a monster, top two pair. People want to put in money in the pot. Realistically, this is the best result you could have gotten on the flop.

Either shove or fold. Your hand isn't likely to improve. If you fold, don't ever call suited one gappers in a 7 way pot again.
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12-14-2013 , 03:51 PM
Next time raise pre if playing these kinds of hands, especially on the button.

I fold because god knows what garbage we let in with all these limpers.

I would need an OESD, solid flush draw, or better to continue.
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12-14-2013 , 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
This is a classic example why calling to see a cheap flop isn't always the right move. In absolute terms, you hit a monster, top two pair. People want to put in money in the pot. Realistically, this is the best result you could have gotten on the flop.

Either shove or fold. Your hand isn't likely to improve. If you fold, don't ever call suited one gappers in a 7 way pot again.
Very interested if you would jam or fold???
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12-14-2013 , 04:09 PM
One of the advantages of limping in with hands like these is that the action is messy you can get away cheaply. This is a situation to take advantage of it and just fold despite flopping very well. In these cases I fold without much thought and happily limp in behind with T8s the next hand also.

Odds are probably slightly in your favor to be ahead right now, but against the combination of hands your probably facing it is unlikely to be best by river. Jamming is not attractive because your odds of being best are only small. Worse, the villains are probably blocking your outs if you are behind, so if you are behind your likely drawing thin and if ahead are only slightly ahead.
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12-14-2013 , 04:20 PM
I'll probably fold because you are passing from 2$ investment to 35$, fold and find a better spot.
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12-14-2013 , 04:26 PM
Why is the BB not mentioned in the description of Vs? He lead out here so we should be thinking about him too.

As for the other Vs, as described, you are likely to be good here. Shove and if called, hope to fade.
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12-14-2013 , 04:36 PM
I'd range BB at a strong draw or a decent 10-X, or 2-pair+. I'd range V1 with the same range. I'd range V2 and V3 with 2 pair, a strong draw, and maybe (i.e. small chance) of a straight or set. They might even have a weak draw like a naked weak flush or straight draw.

You are in fairly good shape, probably around the 50% equity area if you get all in against one player. I'm shoving here...I could do some math if anyone is interested.

The main reasons for shoving:

1. V1's raising range is wider than a normal villain's, due to your read.

2. The chance of V2 or V3 just calling with a straight or set is so tiny that we can largely discount these hands from their range.
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12-14-2013 , 05:50 PM
BB had just moved to the table, no reads. If we just tag him as a normal average 1/2 player hes going to have 2 pair at most. V1 is most likely to have 2 pair, or something like A10 maybe J10. I don't think hes going to raise on a flush draw or a draw at all. V2 I'm putting purely on a draw and V3 has 2 pair maybe a set at most. No one has a straight yet and I likely have the best hand. However I think 150bb is to much to shove, if I have under 100bb I think I'm going to shove it in there every time. I tank folded. V1 had 710. V2 - J7 . V3 - 810 and bb folded. No one had hearts. V2 hit the 9 on the turn and lead for 50. V1 never folded and lost half his stack. I think either way is okay, if being results oriented I should have shoved. But hard to know exactly where you are at 1/2, with all the interest I'm drawing close to dead against a set and usually any heart, 9, J, or 6 has me most likely drawing dead as well.
As far as pre, I don't see any problem limping in with these types of hands in position.
Thanks for the input, very much appreciated.
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12-14-2013 , 07:04 PM
We shove because we know we are good here (not being result-oriented, just going with my reads of the Vs during the hand as previously stated), we want to give bad odds for draws to chase, and we want the 2nd best hand to call.
Furthermore, Your effective stack is actually closer to 100BB, as those are V1 and V3's stacks, the two players you are more concerned about. We can discount V3's stack. SO when you are shoving, you are really shoving ~110 BBs.
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12-14-2013 , 08:03 PM
Snowball, didn't really think of that in the hand or now. Very good point.
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12-14-2013 , 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRounder
Very interested if you would jam or fold???
I'd jam, but it isn't a huge EV play. Somebody can have a set or straight when it is limped this many ways. However, you've got a monster hand (top two). If you start folding these to pressure, I'll guarantee you're -EV overall in this situation. You'll have to have the table crushed to bet, which means you'll never pick up a big enough money to justify all the times you have to fold. You'll end up cursing because nobody will call your bets.

Failing to get your money in when you're a favorite is a mistake.
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12-14-2013 , 10:06 PM
I think it's between calling and folding the flop, you almost close the action so it depends on reads of BB, your equity in this spot is actually quite thin and it's a lot worse than most people think
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12-14-2013 , 11:11 PM
Top two isn't a monster on this flop given the action.

V2 is wide enough that gii top two is good though. V1 can have you beat, very unlikely for the other players to have you beat, however they can have substantial equity in the pot if you let it stay multiway. This is why we shove.
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