Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Great flop and Turn against creative V Great flop and Turn against creative V

03-25-2012 , 10:12 PM
1-3 on a Saturday night.

V-Over $1,000, covers. Played an obscene number of hands, probably 80%. L/C pre most of the time with the occasional raise. Has squeeze raised over a bet and a call on the flop and showed air a couple of times. Has shipped against a tight, good player on a K-K-J board and then showed air bluff. Picks his spots well, hasn't been caught bluffing yet, just showed when it worked. He and I are talking smack, joking around. He always calls when I raise pre, seems willing to make moves, has floated me before. Stack has been up and down.

Hero-$500-LAG image, V thinks I am full of it a lot. History-First hand I sat down, I raised with K-Qs, V and one other call, I am IP. Low card flop, checked around. Turn is the J, giving me a FD, V c/c my bet, river makes the flush and pairs the board, V bets $75, I ship for $225, he thinks for a LONG time, says that I must have a higher flush, then pays me off and shows a smaller flush. Has been annoyed with himself since for paying me off.

V straddles to $7 on BTN (calls a raise 90% of the time when straddling). I raise to $27 with A-Jo, he calls.

~ $55 in pot.

Flop comes J-J-7, no FD. I bet $40, V calls. I think this is the right play but open to thoughts.

$135 in pot

Turn is J-J-7-A. Now I was a little unsure as to my play.

1) Bet small (like $40 again) to act like I hit the A but induce a raise from a J or bluff?
2) Bet Big
3) C/C, then c/r the river to get bluffs and Js to bet?
4) C/R to ??

Wasn't quite sure as to the best EV. Seems like c/r is good but allows his bluffs to get away for one bet?

Open to thoughts. Thank you
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-25-2012 , 10:17 PM
125/shove river vs someone who thinks you're FOS
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-25-2012 , 10:19 PM
I like a C/C on the turn and a C/R on the river.
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-25-2012 , 10:23 PM
what happens when he checks back the turn? do you lead river or try to check raise again?
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-25-2012 , 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaraza
I like a C/C on the turn and a C/R on the river.
Gotta bet. Make it 100
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-25-2012 , 10:42 PM
Bet, do not check planning to c/r. You have a lot of work to do to get all your money in. People miss out on so much value in these spots by not betting/not betting enough. It is a disaster to not give yourself a chance to get your stack in here.

Bet no less than $100(I like $115) so you have less than a pot sized bet on river. If he has a good hand you are getting it in if not what are you going to get? Nothing or like one $50 bluff bet. Take a line that can get your $500 doubled up. He thinks your FOS anyway. He may even call you down with a bluffcatcher. Who knows what he has or what he'll call with or what he'll raise with, but give him a chance to double you up.
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 12:22 AM
Just bet it. You raised pre. He's going to put you on an ace a lot and try to rep a jack.
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 12:32 AM
125/shove river seems to be the obvious choice. That's the best barreling card and if he thinks you're agro its just going to look weird if you check it.
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 03:11 AM
*Semi-grunch*

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinalrams
V straddles to $7 on BTN (calls a raise 90% of the time when straddling). I raise to $27 with A-Jo, he calls.

~ $55 in pot.

Flop comes J-J-7, no FD. I bet $40, V calls. I think this is the right play but open to thoughts.

$135 in pot

Turn is J-J-7-A. Now I was a little unsure as to my play.

1) Bet small (like $40 again) to act like I hit the A but induce a raise from a J or bluff?
2) Bet Big
3) C/C, then c/r the river to get bluffs and Js to bet?
4) C/R to ??

Wasn't quite sure as to the best EV. Seems like c/r is good but allows his bluffs to get away for one bet?
First of all, I hate check-raising here. You said this villain will often bluff-raise with his air, so when he calls this flop it seems like he might actually have something here. If he doesn't have a hand, you can't get stacks in, which is what you want, so I think your plan should focus on getting value, instead of inducing bluffs, with perhaps a slight adjustment because you know he can bluff.

If you check the turn, you give him a chance to check back a lot of hands like pocket pairs, and even Jx with a small kicker, hoping to induce a bluff from you on the river. So I think you should bet the turn--the only question is how much.

I don't think you should bet in the triple digits here. If villain has Jx or 77, it's probably going in anyway, so you should bet an amount that:

1) is small enough that villain could make a curious call with 7x or 88-TT;
2) might induce villain to turn 7x or 88-TT into a bluff if he puts you on KK/QQ and thinks you could be scared of the ace.

I'd go $70. I want to induce a call from a weak hand or a raise from a strong hand or a bluff. If villain just calls, a river shove would be $363 into $275, and it would probably look more like a bluff than betting $105 on the turn and shoving $328 into $345 on the river. (Either way if villain has Jx or better he's likely not folding if you're right about your image, which is why I'm saying we should target hands that could call a flop bet but potentially fold to pressure on the turn.)
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 03:16 AM
I would make a scared money bet here.

Bet out $75.00 with hopes to induce a raise.

If he just calls, bet out small again on the river, only $125.00.

I am telling you, he'll raise, if his stack was shorter you might even be able to get a jam out of him on the river.
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 06:30 AM
Given your handle, I'm assuming that you play in St. Louis. If you're an STL reg, you'll know who I'm talking about. Your villain descrip may fit 2 villains that I know well (man this player pool is regular)

Is your hand against Big Boy, or against the KingFischer (the latter is a smallish dude with a birth defect in his hand)? My guess is its against the latter, b/c you said about 80% of hands, and Mr. Fisher is the only I know who seems to be able to pull that off profitably.

If you're against the Kingfisher, 3/4 pot to pot on the turn, followed by another on the river is likely the way to go. Pray he has a jack, pray more that he raises. Kingfisher doesn't generally bluffraise in big pots, he does so very rarely.

Against Big Boy, the same line is probably the way to go. Big Boy, however, is more creative/varied in these spots than other villains, he will bluffraise, jump on weakness, etc. BigBoy, though, is a massive station, moreso than almost any other villain not betting 3 streets here would seem to be a poor choice.

Both are libel to check behind hands that they may well call with. This is the spot to go for three streets of value, and be thankful if they pay off 2 of them.

I'd probably bet 85 on turn, 205 on river in this spot.
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 08:39 AM
you're prolly giving this guy too much credit, probably just a donk at heart who's a little bluff happy. just keep betting for value and hope he spazzes.
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maskk
Given your handle, I'm assuming that you play in St. Louis. If you're an STL reg, you'll know who I'm talking about. Your villain descrip may fit 2 villains that I know well (man this player pool is regular)

Is your hand against Big Boy, or against the KingFischer (the latter is a smallish dude with a birth defect in his hand)? My guess is its against the latter, b/c you said about 80% of hands, and Mr. Fisher is the only I know who seems to be able to pull that off profitably.

If you're against the Kingfisher, 3/4 pot to pot on the turn, followed by another on the river is likely the way to go. Pray he has a jack, pray more that he raises. Kingfisher doesn't generally bluffraise in big pots, he does so very rarely.

Against Big Boy, the same line is probably the way to go. Big Boy, however, is more creative/varied in these spots than other villains, he will bluffraise, jump on weakness, etc. BigBoy, though, is a massive station, moreso than almost any other villain not betting 3 streets here would seem to be a poor choice.

Both are libel to check behind hands that they may well call with. This is the spot to go for three streets of value, and be thankful if they pay off 2 of them.

I'd probably bet 85 on turn, 205 on river in this spot.
Def not King I guess could be Big Boy-V was a big dude.

Once again, you guys are smarter than me. I wanted to bet small, hoping he would put me on an A, and potentially try to rep the J.

Instead I went for the c/r. As crackleback said, I got a $50 bluff bet and no more.

Thanks for the input. I thought I did butcher it and I was right.
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masaraksh
you're prolly giving this guy too much credit, probably just a donk at heart who's a little bluff happy. just keep betting for value and hope he spazzes.
Yep
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 11:04 AM
but u got a bet from him, didnt you?
on a flop like this such a villain will never give up to just one bet if he has any hope at all. on such boards u almost never win it right there with a c-bet against stubborn villains, so he should have garbage here a lot. when u check he should bet with this hands, thinking the ace is a good bluffing card, although he almost never has it and you have it a lot here.
if u check call, it seems like u hit the ace and let him try to bluff. not a good option, he will probably shut down.
betting is by far the best, and i would be quite small against this particular opponent. about 55. if he really floated the flop with the plan to go crazy, here he has his opportunity. he can almost never has a legit hand to call here, so by betting small u make it easy for him to do it anyway. if he has a valuehand or a bluff, he will raise, and u get the rest on the river, since ur hand looks like a scared ace a lot.
dont checkraise, its by far the strongest move, he might even fold an ace here. if u check, check call and check raise river, although i really dont like this line.
just bet.
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote
03-26-2012 , 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by masaraksh
you're prolly giving this guy too much credit, probably just a donk at heart who's a little bluff happy. just keep betting for value and hope he spazzes.
Though it seems not to be the villains I guessed, I would note that there are regs in STL who fit this descrip and are very good (FischerKing is a friend of mine and is having something like an 18K month at 1/2NL--and he's playing under 40/week--yeah he runs good, but that kindof w/r requires that he also play good)
Great flop and Turn against creative V Quote

      
m