Like spikeraw said, it depends. However if u fold those every time (except ak and aq) the worst it will be is a small mistake (unless a whale is at the table) whereas playing many of them can be a big mistake. Most llsnl would be way better off folding those hands and probably so are u. Against a raise, especially in a multiway pot, usually ak and aq are the only ones worth playing.

strat-wise, clearly bet/fold, bet/fold, bet/fold; skewing your bets larger; adjusting to stack sizes are all key. but here are some other thoughts. these aren't ranked or maybe even a top 5. but five things i find helpful:

1) avoid the catastrophic session: i have a stop loss of 2 BI -- unless it's within the first 2 hours of a session. in that case i'll dip in for a third since i'm still fairly fresh. mainly i'm trying to avoid the combination of mental fatigue and chasing losses, which is toxic. if you basically will NEVER lose 4-5 BI or more, you'll really protect your win rate. maybe there are people who can totally avoid tilt, but most can't, and when losses get big, tilt seeps in without you even realizing it.

2) never feel invincible: you can lose a hand just as easily while sitting on a huge stack, with supposedly a winning image, as you can while running bad. respect every hand and every bet, because they all count. money lost is still money lost.

3) position can be everything when bluffing: if you're gonna play 67s, you'd best put yourself in a position where you will often have some fold equity, and that means playing in position, not out. these kinds of hands can hit big, but much of their value comes from betting with equity or just attacking weakness -- and it's tough to attack weakness if you're OOP and haven't yet seen your opponent check that turn or river.

4) don't be a jerk: if you tell someone, 'how could you have called with a gutshot?!?' it's time to go. you're alerting someone that they're playing badly, you're more likely to tilt, and you're not going to be focused. that's a clear sign that it's time to pack it in and wait for another session.

5) 'don't be a donk': i have a list of little reminders that i keep on my iphone that i review before each session. they're all very basic but there are so many little things to always bear in mind each hand that i think it's worth it to review it often. the top thing on it is 'DON'T BE A DONK.'

i once ran a hand by a friend of mine, who plays a little bigger and is better than me, a hand i won with 96o that i had raised from MP, made a good call vs. an all-in on the flop and won a big pot in a flip vs. a tricky dude on a double draw. i told my friend that my rationale for playing 96 is that i'd been playing tight and wanted to loosen up my image and set myself up to get paid off later. his response was, 'just like it is foolish to "rest on your laurels" with KK and let four people hunt you down by playing it too light, it is likewise foolish to try and "appear" a donkey so that you can have more people call you the few times you have a monster. because you wanna know something about those other hands in which you feel you are "setting yourself up?..." at the end of the day, you are still being a donkey.'

point is, you can have lots of rationales for plays that are nonetheless, especially vs. bad players, still just being a donkey. remind yourself, frequently, not to do these things. just thinking, 'don't be a donk,' has really saved myself from a lot of spew.

Just know that eventually a stop loss will cost you money. A stop loss is a temporary fix. The long term solution is to correct tilt.

sure, and i'm constantly working on tilt control. exercise, taking breaks, etc. maybe some people have no need for a stop loss. i'm not one of them. maybe some have a higher one. tilt is so tough to control and sometimes even recognize that i think a stop loss is a good idea for most players. are you saying that no amount of losses will have an effect on the way you play?

seriously?


1. Patience

I think this is worth repeating. Stamina is probably a key subset of patience, which I have trouble with. I rarely play for more than 4-5 hours at a clip.

2. Honesty

SpikeRaw said something similar above with his "you suck" points. Basically, have the humility and honesty for genuine self-examination. We have leaks, we have flaws, we don't pay attention, we don't play our best--not paying attention or deceiving ourselves will only add to the problem.

To mention one fun example, I was playing against a crazy black dude who was a true gambler. He had run his stack up from 100 to 600 after busting twice and was stationing with everything. It's his last hand, he's in the BB, and he announces "25 blind" before it gets around. I'm UTG and look at AQo, ask if the bet is binding (it isn't) and make it 15 to go. He looks down and makes it 100. I have about 400 total. I shove and get snap called by JJ.

In the moment it was easy for me to justify the play. He's a spazzy gambler, he could be messing around, can't let him push me around, etc. It was only after I left that I realized how bad my play actually was. First, hadn't thought through what kind of gambly villain he was. In hindsight, I realized that he was insane post-flop and passive pre. Failing to consider this meant that I also ignored the fact that I have no fold equity in this spot. zero. He's not making it 100 and folding ever. I failed to ask myself, "is making it 100 and calling it off with worse?" And he's not. Ever. Which means I'm crushed (29% dog) vs. his range. But in the moment, I fooled myself into believing that I was making a +EV shove, when in fact I was spewing and ended up in a best-case scenario (a flip, which I lost).

3. Exploitative Play

This is great advice--i think it's Bart Hansen's golden rule--and a good example of exploitable play. A few other examples that come to mind are overbetting (discussed above) and DGI's discussion of varying pre-flop raise sizing.

4. Table and seat selection

My best sessions have come when I've identified a big spot at the table, gotten position on him, and abused him repeatedly. I'm not a seat-change monkey, but I always try to stay aware of the changing table conditions. It's ridiculous how few people do this in live games.

5. Know when and with which hands to 3-bet

This is tough for me, and seems like an advanced skill of LLSNL since so much depends on experience and table conditions. I have my doubts about 3-betting minraises, although I think it can be a good strategy against certain villains ("it depends!"). But for those players who can read the strength and weakness of raise sizes, 3-betting can be a big advantage.

Not at all. I just don't set a fixed amount. If the game is great and I still feel good I don't want to handcuff myself because I lost some. I still quit if I've lost a bunch and I start to notice my game unravelling. It's just a more fluid stop loss. It requires a little more discipline and a lot more honesty an self monitoring. There have been days when I wishe I had a 2 BI stop loss. Lawls.

right, and that's sort of line with my putting in a third BI if it's early and i'm fresh. i'm trying to avoid the toxic combinations of fuming, fatigue, chasing losses. a fluid stop loss is a good idea, it's just harder to make it enforceable on yourself, and will often result in no stop loss at all -- and more losses.

Please explain "Session Management" a bit....

Interested.

lol. couldn't stop laughing cause it's exactly how I feel after a good session. I walk out the casino with my gangster rolls like a boss. But no doubt, there's a lot of swings and I've learnt how to deal with losing streaks/downswings. Very good post spikeraw.

I have found the stop loss for me to be very important.

As I have reviewed my sessions, any time I am there for around 4 hours and down a buy in I'll drift into starting to limp all broadways from any position, then I'll start limp/calling raises with suited broadways/suited aces/any pocket pairs, suited connectors from all positions...


That's because I get sick in the head and think...

"I have been here for 4 hours playing perfect poker and I am down a buy in, the poker gods owe me something"...

Wrong, that's fish philosophy and I am slowly sliding into my B game. Soon I'll be on my C game and have pocket jacks raise with them, have a ****ty reg 3bet me, and then I'll be 4 bet shoving right into his KK or AA.

You are owed nothing but random hands and if you don't play them all as perfect as possible you'll be the fish in the end.

Anymore, if I am down two buy ins, or down over $200 after 4 hours I just get out of there.

I am trying to play 10-12 hour winning sessions and 4 hour losing sessions.

I am a believer in avoiding the catastrophic session as well.

Where can I find DGI's discussion on varying pre-flop raises?

1. Be Zen at the table. This is a maths exam, not a personal battlefield. Be Galfond.

2. Wait, wait, wait, wait for your chance. It will come.

3. Don´t do anything stupid! One moment of madness and you can lose hundreds.

4. Bet/fold.

5. Be a gentleman. A winner in poker is someone that loses with dignity, and soon enough you begin to react that way on the inside, too. That way you learn to assess your play correctly ignoring results.

I don't know where to point you exactly, but as far as pre flop raising goes one thing I took from DGI is that every table will have a raising threshold....

That's the raise size needed to get the pot to be heads up or down to just a three way...

At some tables the raise size will be $12, $15, $17, $21, and yes at a 1/2 table I was at before I was having to raise to $25 to get it down to heads up or 3 way.

I saw DGI rip posters who said stuff like "I was making it $15 and getting called in 5 spots, so I just kept it at $15 because these fish are never folding."

That's wrong, if you get getting a lot of multiple callers, jack it all the way up to $30+ at 1/2 if need be.....

ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO NOTE

If you are at a PASSIVE table with a lot of nits and can't get any action on $12 to $15 raises, lower your raises to $7 or $9 WHEN YOU HAVE A HAND, then bet POT/POT/SHOVE when you hit.

Like I said in my original post... CALL STATIONS COME IN ALL BRANDS OF PLAYERS...

MR.NIT might only call a $15 raise with a top 5 poker hand. But, if you bet $8 with A/K, MR. NIT will call you with A/10 and when he hits his top pair MR. NIT transforms into a call station droooler and you can put a nice dent in his stack.

When you have any two cards in position, then throw out the $15 bet and scoop blinds/limps. Raise smaller when you have a great hand.

1. Get in pots with people you know you can outplay
2. Session review
3. Position
4. Knowing when its time to go winning or losing
5. Knowing when its time to go winning or losing

My name refers to being in the auto industry.

I used to be an Internet Sales Director for a Ford dealership.

I now own my own Facebook marketing/consulting company that helps auto dealers with all of that stuff.

I have posted on several online forums over the years and usually when anyone asks me what I do I lie and just say I am a dirty old used car salesman rather than tell them the actual truth.

A "lotgrinder".....

Meaning I grind out car sales on used car lots, get drunk on the job, blow cocaine with strippers on my lunch hour, roll back miles on minivans then sell them to unsuspecting single moms, write loans at 24.99% interest,etc, etc, etc...basically I cared so little about all the other forums I've posted in I preferred the site think I was a scumbag. All the people whose posts I enjoyed I'd just communicate with through the pm feature and in the forum I'd have fun with the online persona.

Also on the HERO CALLING....

This is something where I think 2+2 forums actually works against us....

We are all here striving to be better players and looking to continually sharpen the edge we have against our opponents.

So, it is natural for us to think that other people sitting at the same poker table as us are on here as well. In our minds we start to think that the people at the table are trying to exploit us/make a move on us/outplay us.....

It's hardly EVER the case.

We live in a society that makes fun of reading and makes fun of people who want to learn.

Most people will never read a book again after graduating high school.

I think only 1 out of 3 people read a book again after graduating college.

Most of our opponents are incapable of trying to exploit us and they're not here seeking out information/trying to improve/or ever reading ANYTHING.

So, when the flop comes 6s/10s/3c and you're sitting with 78s in the big blind and lead out for $15 in a 7 way pot and get one caller...

The turn brings a king of spades, then you lead out for $40, and the guy who hasn't bet more than $25 all day spazzes and announces "ALL IN."

Yeah, that guy hit his hand, fold, he wasn't floating you.....

Until a player outright smacks a bluff down in your face and laughs at you, just fold to all his big aggression plays.

It's massive +ev

*grunch*

1] don't bluff- the overwhelming mistake at this level is in them calling too much, and continuing when your strat would dictate fold. since there are no absolutes in poker, i would only bluff players who have proved to you over a decent sample that they have a fold button... or when the perfect situation comes up and you are being gifted the pot by a great river to rep.
but for the most part don't try to bluff them off a hand, or what they consider a hand; you don't need to balance, or establish an image through them observing what you show down from what position; they aren't paying attention.
the hero-bluff is pretty much an amateur play at any level imo...

2] overcard them- If they play so weak that they limp call Q7s ect...(and if they don't at this level, change tables/ games imo), then KQ becomes a juicy value hand to get 3 streets with, whereas in a tough game it's trouble.
In a nut shell, value town the hell out of the stations who populate this level.
opening K8 is preferable to opening 78s here, even though 78 is really a better hand; the reason is that if they are making the basic mistake of calling trash OOP to hit a piece, and they are also show down monkeys, you want more SDV, not connectivity. Also, you have less steal equity post, which is what you need to open SCs. What would be solid play in a toughish 5/10 game becomes spew vs. the average LLS table.
Don't play too many hand, let them do that. An over-active image isn't that worth while for the most part. If they become capable of withholding action because they notice your'e tight, change tables...

3] don't go on Fancy Play Syndrom- winning online players have transitioned to live and spewwed off countless BI against the worst players they have ever seen, and wondered why.
When the field isn't capable of understanding your play, FP is not going to work.
establishing an understanding of exactly how bad players at LLS are is crucial. Don't assume they play, or think anything remotely like you do.
don'y play against them like you would against yourself. (i see this all the time from players who are trying to be 'good')
don't assume they are aware of what position even is unless they have proved it to you.
don't slowplay... try to get all in on the flop w/ the flopped nut flush, ect...

4] have fun- hard to do when you're running bad vs. droolers, but when the games are usually nothing but pure rec players, they are there to have a good time, and that's it. they know they are going to lose (at least sub-consciously), so try to give them some incentive. try to make the game fun, don't engage in poker strat prattle at the table, and spoil the gambling atmosphere/ you are just slashing your own win-rate if too much seriousness cools the action. most people don't like to be embarrased, but they are willing to play just terrible if they are in a gambling mood

5] don't tilt- most $ won and lost in poker is through ppl steaming.
Spotting mind-numbingly poor players an edge because youre not on A or B game seems to defeat the purpose of playing with them.
there are way more opportunities to tilt at this level, but that's what makes it so profitable (relative to the stakes).
It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking 'they are so bad i can beat their A game with my C game' but this doesnt really do service to improving your performance or your score.

Noted as gold.

A lot of good advice in the thread... Thanks all who have contributed.

One big picture piece of advice that I'd give is that you shouldn't fall into the trap of always/never doing something. I truly believe that live poker is a game that revolves around people's personalities, attitude, situations, etc. Saying that you should "always" bet 2/3 pot lets certain players off the hook who may have called for less and will cost you money in the long run. Always pay attention to your opponents; not just to what cards they're playing and their tendencies, but to their stories, their backgrounds, their personalities.

The other thing I'd suggest is that you act like a gentleman at the table. The live poker economy relies on the fact that bad players can visit the casino, lose their money, but still enjoy the overall experience and have a desire to come back. Berating fish, throwing tantrums when you get sucked out on and rolling your eyes throughout a session do nothing to accomplish this. If there's a whale at the table who likes joking around and feeling like he's "one of the boys"... accommodate him.

Seems like a good start

Great thread idea, there are variations of this thread but its always good to generate a new one and keep it fresh.

Here is my top five list for beating 1/2nl and 2/5nl

#1 What You See is What You Get: Make Decisions Based on Observations and Reality
By far the biggest leak thinking players have is their own bias. To often we can't help but be biased by what "we" would do if we were villain. Or, we level ourselves into thinking that the terribad villain is adjusting to us and making some sick 5th level super saiyain Durr-Ivey triple reverse check-raise-semi-bluff-4-bet-light-value bet against us... No. 95% of the time, what you see is exactly what you get. Aggro players are aggro, spewtards spew, scared money sees MUBs, calling stations call, nits never get it in with weak hands...

Optimal Poker is about making the right adjustments, so you need to have a firm grip on exactly what it is you are adjusting to. So adjust based on observation and reality, not your bias. Don't create wide ranges for nitty villains to justify stacking off w TPGK or conversely, assign a maniac/spewtard a nutted range just because you have tiny testicles and want to justify folding your TPGK or mid two pair hand when its +EV to get it in.

#2 Pay Attention, ESPECIALLY in hands you aren't involved in
There is a wealth of information to be had. Sizing tells, betting frequency, villain competency, who value bets and who doesn't, who bluffs busted draws and who doesn't, etc etc. The table/villains will tell you exactly how to win, all you have to do is pay attention

#3 Understanding the Table's and Villains' Betting Thresholds.
Every table will have betting thresholds that are indicative of hand strength vs table tendencies. It is important that you understand what the table will and will not call so you can manipulate the situation to get the desired result. Raising $15 can get five callers, $20 four callers, $30 three callers, $35 callers two callers... Also, villains will have sizing tells with their hands.

#4 Raising wide in LP, HJ, CO, BTN and c-betting
This is a super basic staple of being a winning player. Fact is, 70% of the time, our villains are going to whiff the flop. So raising in LP and c-betting 2 villains or less, is insanely profitable. Then factor in your image, post flop game, and being in position and the situation becomes even more profitable. There is also the balance aspect of raising at a high enough frequency that villains don't view all our raises as AA, KK, AK so that when we don have a monster hand we can get paid off.

#5 Prison Raping Your Villains
Rec-fish didn't drive 30 minutes to the casino to fold their TPMK, baby flush, idiot end straights, trips no kicker, flush/straight draws, gut shots, etc type hands. Fish think in terms of relative strength and don't understand absolute strength. When you recognize your villain has a relatively strong hand and you are stronger you should be utilizing #1 - #3 to figure out how much value you can extract. And in most cases, you can play for stacks regardless of pot size.

A subset of my Prison Raping motiff is Value Betting. We should be relentlessly value betting the vast majority of our villains. They rarely will turn their made hands into bluffs and will call down with bottom or mid pair especially when they put you on AK since you raised preflop.

You have to be in charge and key in on everything. Just like in tournaments you game plan for early stages, middle and final table. You have to do the same for cash games but from an emotional standpoint. Now that strategy is to each his own. But I focus on winning and riding out losing pots. I treat it like a jump shot. Ill hit my next one because I'm a winning player.

The real management is about thyself. Most people range it as A, B and C game. I like to call it emotions and how you manage that with your play. Everyhand should be a set up to bust a player. Its how we manage the little and medium pots to set up our big ones that determine big or huge nights.

IME, this strategy will work. Even better is to simply table change to a table full of drunks/gamblers/fish. If you are at a tight LLSNL table at any point from Thursday night to Monday morning, you are the fish. Maybe I'm just spoiled playing at FW?

I been saying this for awhile digi. You don't come into the chat thread too often. But your #1 is the biggest leak in llsnl. Ranging from all types of players. Especially the lags(or wannabe) they have it bad on all levels. They always thinking someone is bluffing them. Because they live by that especially the higher levels.

But the main area of concern is my peers. The tag form here always thinks someone is playing a spot a certain way. Because they would play it a certain way. Clearly leveling themselves.

That's why they say "Knowing too much theory generally is a bad thing".

"No guts, No glory"

1. Preflop play
- Don't play junk.
- Open up a bit from LP.
- If super deep as most live games are, play more drawing hands even from oop if multiway

2. Value betting
- Never miss a value bet because most pots are multiway and you need that pot growth
- This includes raising and 3betting with nutty hands postflop.

3. Bet sizing
- Make sure your sizing has a purpose.
- For max value, closer to pot size. Against stations, bet an elastic amount against their elastic range to make sure weaker hand are calling
- With cbets and semi-bluff/blocking bets, closer to 1/2 or even less.

4. Learn your opponents
- Pay attention to opponents and learn their play style. You need to be able to put them on ranges according to their actions.
- Keep an eye on their stacks so you know how best to play against them.

5. Tilt management
- I don't really have tilt problems but it is a common problem for most people.
- You may tilt when winning or losing, make sure you don't play differently than optimal.