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General Pre-flop raise sizing at 1/2 Question General Pre-flop raise sizing at 1/2 Question

06-03-2012 , 10:23 PM
I know these questions can be table and position dependent but just looking for some ballpark numbers. I am a online player who is planning on starting to play some live so don't have Live cash game experience.

1) What is your standard opening size for a hand with where there are no limps or raises before you?

2) How much more do you raise per limper in front of you?

3) How big do you make your 3-bets (Say a raise to $10, how big do you make your 3-bet with just the raiser in the hand, and how much do you make it say if he has a caller or two?)
06-03-2012 , 10:28 PM
Your going to get a zillion responses all basically eluding to the same answer. "it depends" Make sure you read the stickies, theres alot of useful hh's and discussion in there regarding your conscerns.
06-03-2012 , 10:58 PM
my standard open sometimes is as low as 7,usually around 10-12, but sometimes 15-18

at the 2 places i pla at i open for 11 and add 1 per limper

so if i raise UTG i raise to 11
if im in the CO and there are 3 limpers i will raise to 14, etc...

3bet sizing is also dependent because if you are playing at a loose table you will probably want to 3bet using standard online size, say open raise to 10, call 10: u hsould 3 bet to 43 (10x3 + non raiser dead money) or open raise to 12, if ur next to act then 3 bet to 39 (12x3 + 3)

however at typical 1-2 games, 3 betting is usually limmited to 1010+ aq ak and the players know this so usually just 3x or 2.8x the raise maybe pumping in 1/2 the dead money is sufficent

at these tables, say raise to 10 i will just 3 bet to 30 even if there were 1 or 2 limpers in front

or say 5 limps then raise to 12 i will 3 bet to 42 because using standard sizing to 49 would betoo much
06-03-2012 , 11:33 PM
It depends.
06-04-2012 , 12:43 AM
I will start my rant with some insight into the typical Friday night 1/2nl table.

Majority of the players are rec fish there to have fun. They don't know much poker theory and believe in all types of fish stuff like favorite cards, lucky cards, noticing "patterns" on the flops, etc. And then there are their "magical guts" and their "gut feelings".

So, how much do I raise? My first raise is $15, second is $20, third is $25 and I evaluate the results and table dynamics. I've played at many 1/2nl tables where I raised up to $30 and $35 and got 2-3 callers. And they weren't calling with JJ/QQ but with JTs and 96s becuase they were their "favorite cards".

my 3bets are anywhere from 3 - 7 x the initial raise depending on raise amount and strength of my hand.

The biggest problems live players and many on this forum have is they are "hardwired" for raising a set amount at 1/2nl and that is just ******ed. I get into this fight all the time on here to the point where i'm sick of it and am limiting the amount of 1/2nl posts I respond to.

Imo, you can "condition" the table to accept your raises.

I'll often raise $20 as my standard raise and the first two times I raise, table folds, but then upon my 3rd raise, its like they "accept" that is my raise amount and they start calling. Then, when I get a really strong hand and raise to $25 or even $30 many players call without really noticing the difference.

And often times, villains will call a $25 raise while only having $100 behind. Again, in the fish's mind that is fine because they have more than enough money to call, I mean, they have 4 times the money behind so obviously that is enough to call and hope to get lucky right?

On rare occassion, you run into a passive player limp/calling with AA/KK type hands but big deal. They are so easy to read post flop.

I raise $20, player calls, I cbet and they fold 100% of the time when they miss and they call when they are strong. But since they are weak-tight/passive they will either c/r me on flop when they are strong (thanks) or they will go for a c/r on turn. Either way, once they call my cbet I know I'm done and need to hit my cards on turn and river to win, so they check turn going for the c/r and I just check back. So I get to see two cards for the price of the flop cbet.

In any event, EXPERIMENT at each table you are at and also pay attention to what villains are calling. I guarantee once you start raising more and more on a consistent basis you will be shocked at the result. Doesn't matter how "face up" you think your raise is, the fish simply "don't know" or "don't care".
06-04-2012 , 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris
Majority of the players are rec fish there to have fun. They don't know much poker theory and believe in all types of fish stuff like favorite cards, lucky cards, noticing "patterns" on the flops, etc. And then there are their "magical guts" and their "gut feelings".
That is both true and unbelievably funny. "I knew it was coming!" "Sevens are hot tonight!" Etc.

My standard open raise is $10-15, but it does vary based on how calling-ish the table is. If I 3-bet I almost always make it 3-3.5x unless there were multiple callers of the original raise, then I'd go for bigger. If there were 6 callers at $10 each and I wanted to 3-bet I'd make it $75.

For most live players, a 5x preflop raise is actually small. If a live player makes it $7 they have 7's or a suited connector ALMOST 100% of the time.
06-04-2012 , 10:43 AM
It depends on your table. As I see it raise preflop as much as it takes to get no more than 2 callers. If 3 or more players call it will be next to impossible to take it down with a cbet.

In a place I play at I usually start with open-raise to 15 and adjust based on how many callers I get first few times i raise. Next is 20, then 25, sometimes even 30.

Of course if there's a straddle then I'd raise more to start with. Like 20 (after straddle 4), 30 (after straddle 8) and so on... And of course, raise more if several people already limped.

Many villians at 1/2 don't understand adjusting raise sizes and will automatically put you on AK if you raise 25 or more preflop. For example I once raised 40 with 56s after straddle 8 and 2 calls, flopped a straight and proceeded to stack 2 villians for ES ~400 because "raise to 40 means big cards".
06-04-2012 , 10:54 AM
As stated above, it all just depends on the game.

On weekends I play 2/5 at casino, so that's a different beast. During the week I play 1/2 at a local charity poker room. It plays fairly loose. My standard opening is 7.5x or 15$. I still get 2-3 callers a lot of times. I start with 7.5x and go from there depending on the night. If I can open for 10x and get heads up or 3way, I will do that. Especially if the table is playing fit or fold on the flop. A lot of nights I raise 7.5x, get 4 callers, then bet 1/2 pot and take it down. LLSNL is all about dead money.

You'll hear people bitching that "people call with anything for any raise". They'll complain they raise with AA and get 5 callers. This causes a lot of players to start playing passively and loses money in the long run. Most of this is dead money on the flop. Anyone complaining about too many callers needs to a) get better at post flop play b) make sure they are playing in position.

As far as 3bets go, this also depends on the table. Start out with 3-4x the original raised amount and go from there.

My opinion on the matter of opening and 3bet amounts in LLSNL is to get as much as possible in. Obviously you'll want to have premium hands while doing this. No need to try to play LAG at this level. Just play a solid TAG style and get as much as you can in the pot. Most of it will be dead free money.
06-04-2012 , 11:13 AM
a 3X open is standard... ldo. so $6.
06-04-2012 , 11:36 AM
You'll get the feel of it pretty quickly when you sit in. Like you see in the responses there's a pretty wide range of $10-$25. If you have KK and people are limp calling $20 raises, make it $20+. In the games i play $12 seems to work best. For a $15 raise a limper has to pull back his two $1 chips and throw 3 $5 chips, it's easier for them to call $12. It seems to be an unspoken agreement now that $15+ is a 'real' hand and those raises don't usually get much action. I wish i still played in games where people were limp/calling the J-9o for $22 but i just don't see that anymore.
06-04-2012 , 12:00 PM
As the first responder and dgiharris mentioned, it depends. I'll note one other thing before I lock this because they nailed the answer. The biggest weakness of micro stake online players moving to live is that they never learned how to play the player or sense when a table mood switches. Developing those skills will move you from a frustrated online player to a crushing live player.
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