I was hoping at least some of you might have gone through a similar situation and could lend your advice. . .

I have access to between $10-15K. I might have it with a 5% loan, or I might be able to just kind of pay the money back as I go without even having to worry about the interest. In either event, I want to be able to pay the money back in full at some point.

I live about 45 miles from the nearest casino. There is one close to my work but they spread a $40, 1-3 game usually, and sometimes a $3-5 $200 game, where you can rebuy for $300. The players there are atrocious, but you can't even beat the rake at the $40 game.

The casino 45 miles away has a $3-5 $500 game, a $1-3 $100 game and a $2-5 $300. All games are usually going. The $500 game allows you to eat free when you are playing.

At the local casinos, I probably could go twice a week, at night, for no more than about three hours (unless I hit a real hot streak)

Other options are occasional trips to Vegas and closer Indian casinos (I am in CA). I would probably have to bring the family for most of these, so there would be hotel and meal expenses to deal with, but I would be able to play for maybe 5-8 hours per day.

I have a full time job, but want to make between $10-$20K per year more, to supplement the income. I don't really want to have to get a 2nd real job. I enjoy poker, and would like to do this on the side.

I am a winner at up to $25 tables internet wise, and have done pretty well live, though was only rolled for a couple of buy ins, and eventually lost that and have not played live since (because I haven't been able to free up any cash lately)

I have heard that an obtainable win rate is about 10BB per hour (real BB, not Poker Tracker BB), but I don't have sufficient hands to make that observation on my own. I also heard that 20 buy ins is probably fine for live poker. I am planning on quitting a session once I lose 2 buy ins.

Comments? Advice? Is the travel idea good or bad? Anyone have any actual experience with going on poker destinations with the family in tow???

Since you have a full time job, you don't need a strict bankroll as long as you are playing with money you can afford to lose. From what you've said I would drive the 45mi once a week and only play in the 3-5 $500 game. Otherwise the rake is just too high. From what I can gather it sounds like you live somewhere in San Diego.

I wouldn't borrow money to gamble especially if you're paying interest on it as well. And if your main objective is extra money, I don't see a Vegas trip taking the whole family as a very good idea either.

What casino's you plan on playing at?

You would be better off getting a second job than playing poker if supplementing your income is the goal. It would be best to be honest with yourself that while supplementing your income might be a benefit of playing more poker, the main thing is that you want to play more poker. If you are not looking at things clearly, your chances of succeeding at playing poker for profit is going to be vastly reduced.

First, 10BB/Hr is obtainable if you are crushing the game. If you've lost your live BR, you have no clue whether you are doing "pretty well" live or not. You may be that good, but the indications are that you aren't.

And even if you can win that much, you've got expenses of driving your car 90 miles twice per week. At a total cost of about $0.45/mile (depreciation on the car, gas, increased oil changes/maintenance), your nut is about $40. Add 5% interest on $10k and that's another $5 per trip. Since you'll only play for 3 hours, at best you'll net $5/hr with minimum wage being over $7. And forget about bringing your family. Now you're eating out for more than one and they're not just going to sit in the hotel room while your play. You'll have no chance to make money.

Finally, I should warn you that the hardest thing about playing poker regularly for money is the sheer boredom. A recreational player goes to have fun. If they don't feel like going, they don't. If there is something they want to do more, they do that. Someone who is playing to make money has to go when the money is good. That's mostly when other people are having fun. You'll play holidays and weekends. If you don't go in when you don't feel like it, you don't make money. You'll be around people that you otherwise wouldn't spend one second with. And after a while, you'll have heard the same story a regular tells a hundred times. You'll go through days where it seems all you do is fold. Most people fall off their "A" game under those conditions. And when they do, they lose.

However, if you insist and your family is behind you, then go through your budget and pull out every expense that is optional. That means going without gifts. No more trips to Starbucks or going out to eat. A lot less meat for dinner and more mac and cheese. No drinks at the bar with friends. Save your money to build a 3 BI bankroll, then start playing. If you lose it, rinse and repeat.

Honesty is pretty depressing, just read venice's post above.

I'd have to agree Venice is spot on.

Driving 90 miles round trip to some poker club twice per week is not a way to supplement your income. You either got to have couple clubs in your area or move in Vegas where the best games in the entire world, 24/7, are spreading. Outside of Vegas I have very little experience to tell you how can you manage some extra money but in Vegas you practically don't have to worry of having a full time job because poker is gonna be your main job for life if you are a winning player.

Now, be a little more conservative and estimate to make not 10BB/hour but cut that number in two and figure for 5 or 6BB/hour. So, in this case expect $25/hour. If you can play 100 hours per month you can see that you'll be making $2500/mo or 30K/year. Now, playing cards for living is gonna be fun, but be advised pardner, ..., NL cash games are actually "con" games while the limit game are pure math similar to playing Blackjack with card counting. If you know the math and the patience you can make great money playing limit and if you've got what it takes you can make even more in the NL cash games.

I think your best bet, if you insist on playing poker for a second job, is to do it once a month. If you go once a month, just take a weekend trip where you leave your house Saturday morning, play 10-12 hours from noon Saturday through 1-2AM Sunday, with at least one break. Crash somewhere cheap for 6-8 hours (morning games are meh), play another 6-8 hours Sunday afternoon. Drive home.

Trying to play for a weekend more than once a month will cause some other aspect of your life to suffer.

PS this probably won't get you $10k/year, maybe half that if you're good.

Can you please define what you mean by a con game, and why NL is a con game?

Loved your entire post, wanted clarification on that, thx

I have several BIG concerns.

#1) Based on what you've written above, its not clear if you are a winning player at the live game

Too often (especially on 2+2) online players think that the $0.10/$0.25 and $0.25/$.50 skills and winrates transfer to $1/$2 and $2/$5 live and that is simply not true nor completely accurate.

In a nutshell, the live game is DIFFERENT, different opponents, psychologies, environmental factors, pace, physicality, etc. A lot of these differences throw online players for a loop, ESPECIALLY THE PACE!!!!

#2) The time commitment and logistics.

Playing live for an income is a huge time commitment. You have to have the time to sit for hours on end, through hours of card deadness to get those precious few hands that will make or break your entire day. Similarly, its in your best interest to target the fish and donks who play 5pm - 2am Wed - Sunday and it doesn't seem like your schedule will be flexible enough. Plus, a lot of times the wait list for a table can easily be an hour if you aren't a regular (especially during peak donk/fish hours like 7pm on a Friday night). So if you think you can show up, play a quick 3 hrs, and then leave, you are mistaken.

#3) Steady paycheck???

Its not like punching a clock for a guaranteed income. Due to variance, you can easily have a bad 2-3 week run where you go through a $6K downswing.

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To be clear, I have tons of respect for online players and technically, I feel online players have a better understanding of the mechanics and mathematics of proper poker and in general are at a higher skill level. However, what DESTROYS online players when they try to play live is that they do not properly respect or understand the differences between live and online play and they try to cut and paste their online games to the live world.

My fear for you is that you would be part of the majority of online players who crush the online world but get your ass handed to you in the B&M casino.

IMO, it takes about 150 hrs to get a proper feel for live play at the level in question. And truthfully, there are MANY online players who simply cannot make the adjustment.

If you are serious about making an income with live play, then you are really talking 2/5NL poker with a $500 buy-in. Acquiring 150 hrs of "experience" can easily run you $20K in the hole.


anyways, my two cents, take it for what its worth.

Everyone seems pretty down on your idea. You can definitely travel to play the 3/5 game $500 game. There's not a TON of harm in traveling once or twice a week. However, playing on a 5% loan is probably a really bad idea. 99.x% of players can probably not overcome playing on a loan like that at a B&M casino. If you've already got a full time job, just try to set aside 1-3 buyins and take some shots IMO. Play a little tighter, and pass up on some relatively neutral EV plays until you grind up some more $$. Make sure you can afford to lose it. If you lose it, oh well, time to save up some more money. There's nothing "magical" about having a ~20-30 buyin roll. It's just a good amount to have if you're going to figure out what stakes to play and don't want to risk going broke. However, often with live you don't really have an option with what stakes you can play. The BIG problem with getting a loan to do this, is that if you find out your a losing player, no amount of buyins will keep you from going broke. You'll just lose the 15k and have to pay all that back + interest.

As others have said, being a winner online doesn't mean anything live. You are definitely way more likely to be able to win at the casino, but there's a learning curve. Games are definitely "softer" in the sense that you can win more BB/hand on average. However online and live are so different, that it's definitely possible you put in 100s of hours before you start winning live. I've had to make so many ridiculously horrible plays (in hindsight) before I got a feel for how the players play their hands (Oh he lrr allin from the button, he can't have anything, whoops KK, etc).

You can also win a lot more than 10BB/hr. However, I'm fairly confident hardly anyone is pulling more than ~5BB/hr. I so rarely see someone that I think can long-term win more than about 5BB/hr. And those same guys talk about how much they've won online. They're really just simply not good enough to win the fabled 10BB+/hr, so I wouldn't count on it if I were you. Their leaks/tilt-control are just too big crushing the game.

I'm not sure what venice10 is talking about with the hardest part about poker is boredom. Poker is super fun, and there's almost always something to pay attention to/think about. Just b/c you don't see someone's cards, doesn't mean you can't put them on a range and figure out how they play their hands.

Fullring NL$25 may have been about as tough( or easy, depending upon your level of skill ) as $1/$2 live was a few years ago but the live game can be very different today with the influx of young, math savy ex-pokerstars & fulltilit players. Even older guys like myself are better due the vast amount of training that is available and online practice.

yes lowstakes live players make a lot of mistakes but it is not the fishing trip some 2+2ers would have you believe. if you play solid straightforwarded poker consistetly you can make money over the longrun.

Agreed with this... Online, you care a ton about playing unexploitably (you want to balance your ranges, defend your blinds with 3bets, etc); making yourself unexploitable might be even more of a concern then playing as to maximally exploit other players... On the other hand, in LLSNL, to crush the game, it's pretty much *all* about maximally exploiting the fish. For the most part, when you play live, you just don't care about how balanced your ranges are, if you're making a huge value bet or raise in a spot you would never bluff, etc. Online, you are hoping to win a few BBs/100 hands. In live low stakes games, you are trying to win like 30+ BBs/100 hands. Online, you adjust your play so that you can consistently make those few BBs/100. If you play the same way live, you'll likely get the same consistency - a few BBs/100. This just isn't enough to make the game worth it for someone playing seriously as a source of income.