Saw my friend play this hand last weekend when we went to the casino (I think it's noteworthy that it was his first time, as he just turned 18). Fairly early into the session the hero establishes a LAG image, possibly even maniacal, he tells me he allegedly had big pairs all the time, and has taken down 3 pots preflop with large 3bets.
Villain is a young asian male who came with a group of friends. no real reads as he has played one hand in 3 orbits.
Hero has about 120bb and villain has about 100bb at the start of the hand.

Villain raises to $15 UTG, picks up one caller in MP.
Hero raises to $60 with KK. folded to the villain who insta-shoves.
Folded back to hero who is tanking, the dealer makes some comment which the villain must have misheard because he turns his cards face-up to show AA.

After the hand i tell my friend that he just dodged a bullet ($200 buying is a significant fraction of our bankroll, and quite a leap from 10c/20c online playing) and he replies by saying that he was about to lay it down.

My question is; is there ever a conceivable spot where you can confidently lay down KK preflop? my own belief is that because pot-control is almost impossible when standard opening raise is $15, 3bet is about $60 if hitchhikers come along for the ride and a 4bet is almost invariably all-in (unless action is between 2 deepstacks). So you will usually be facing a SPR of something like 1:2. also, in my limited experience 4bet shove-ranges of most villains includes TT+, AKs. However, in the given circumstance, an internet player who insta-shoved like this almost always has AA instead of something like QQ or even JJ. so i could understand my friend's reasoning. is folding KK preflop ever profitable at these low stakes?? thanks and sorry if my rambling obfuscated the question near the end

<100BB's....no. 150 BB+....yes.

Maybe i should elaborate, is this a rule of thumb, or are there any spots where the maths-defying laydown of KK preflop is justifiable?
Personally, im very ambivalent on the topic as the maths is saying no, but on the other hand i dont see many solid villains making this shove with anything other than AA or rarely QQ.

Don't really understand/agree with this. . .

Hero's image obviously comes into play in this scenario - so we have to expect that we're getting shoved on lighter. I would only fold KK for 100 BBs vs. the oldest, nittiest human being on the planet - MAYBE. . . hero already has 30 BBs in the pot, though.

So i can just continue getting all 100bb in the middle preflop and if they AA its just a cooler?

Yes minus an extremely strong read.

With no significant reads/history, yes you should never fold KK pre for a 100bb.
The times KK is up against (anything other than AA) + 18% of the time you suckout against AA = higher +EV then selectively folding

One caveat that might be relevant - if you're playing on a super short bankroll I guess you could justify finding a fold slightly more often. . .

Yes, i am not rolled for these stakes (the lowest at the casino) and my job pays for a buyin a week
Maybe given these circumstances im playing scared poker, afraid of getting it in with the best of it for fear of suckouts/near-coinflips and such

It is never a near coin flip situation...That's why it isn't a "let's gamble" type move, but you will get suckouts just as much as you will suckout.

The closest it will ever come is vs. AK suited, which you are still a 65% favorite.
I can't fault you for wanting to protect your bankroll, just recognize that it really isn't as risky as you are making it to be.

That last comment i made was not specific to KK preflop, rather like the classic AK vs QQ or something like that.

But thanks for ur comments so far, ive been a hardline; 'never fold KK preflop with 100bb' for a long time, but the effect of variance on a bankroll with 7 buyins is probably making me play bad

Theres already a lot somewhere else on the forum about laying down KK pre

Im prob never laying KK down in 1/2 live. 100bbs isnt that much

Yes, that would be different. If you had QQ and someone 4bet'shoved pre, you can fold if you put them on KK+/AK

Some people never 4 bet a pot without Aces or kings. If you know villain is one of these players then folding kings can be the right play at times.

finally, a voice of sanity.^^^

ppl happily shove w/ AT suited in 2/5 for 100 bbs all the time, for value.. at 1/2, who knows?
If they have AA, you are just supposed to pay it off.
it just doesn't come up often enough to worry about.
also, if they are'nt folding KK pre, and they are'nt,
then it's breakeven in terms of recipocality. if the hands were switched, it's going to play out the same, either way.
so, in theory, you lose no $ when you pay off AA, because you are equally likely to be on either end of the cooler.

of course, there are spots where the action, and the nittiness factor of villian,
would suggest a fold, as their hand is pretty much face up,
but this is even more rare; almost not worth even being concerned about, or thinking about until it happens. discussing it just a big 'what if'.

I know ANL is gonna disagree...

Hi, i was the friend in OP's hand.

With the majority of my posts made in the uNL and SSNL forums, I consider myself much more of an internet player than a live player even though I've played live in home games (penny stakes) for ~2 years and internet cash games for only like a few months. So I very much know all the mantras and rules of not folding KK preflop etc. But anyway, OP misquoted some of the action:


I was actually over 150bb deep (probably 160-170), and villain had me covered. villain UTG was, probably plays online, seemed to have a sound knowledge of the game, used vernacular such as "cooler" "equity" "3bet" at the table. he opened for $10, his buddy called somewhere in MP and I squeezed from hijack to $50. Folds to him who insta-announces (like literally as soon as BB folded) allin in an abnormally loud (or at least louder than his previous declaration of actions). My image is very much solid TAG, and pretty apparent i'm an internet player or at least have extensive experience with poker. (lol i was not LAG as OP described, i had picked up two small pots: raise pre, get 3 or so callers, take it down with a cbet, to get my stack to 150+bbs - and these were the only hands i played for 1 hr)

Folds to me, i'm kinda sad since we're 150+bbs deep and because I know that villain knows i'm solid and i know that villain is solid and would have a tight playback range (or at least knows that getting 3bet there by me would be AK/QQ+). But since he instashoved and he appeared VERY confident and self-assured to me, I thought his 4bet range would pretty much be narrowed to KK+ because he'd at least have to think about what he'd do with QQ and AK imo (considering stack depths and how strong I looked).


oh and, it wasn't dealer's fault that villain flipped AA - I did my ole grumble grumble this is so sick inside my head then asked villain if he had me covered (I knew he had me covered, I just wanted further reads or w/e lol). Villain insta-flipped AA because he thought I was announcing call, and I mucked quietly after this. I was not angleshooting - I very loudly and clearly said "Do you have me covered?", and everyone at the table including the dealer and the villain (in retrospect) heard me clearly

Also my buddy lies when he says he had a solid TAG image; he often plays trouble-hands OOP and tries crazy triple-barrel bluffs that get picked off rouinely.

Pwned barry greenstein