I don't actually know if this is a simple fold pre spot or not.

2/5, Friday night. I recognize one of the players at the table as a talkative, semi-competent LAG and he's chatting it up with a couple other players about his age (early 30's/late 20's). There are a few other older folks at the table which is normal here. Hero is mid 40's.

I just sat down maybe 2-3 hands ago and I'm in the big blind with a starting stack of $500. One of the younger guys raises to $25 UTG, standard open size. Semi-competent LAG calls in EP. CO calls. Button calls. SB calls. Hero in BB has 4 3. I can already hear some people saying "fold pre". I think it's probably a break-even call to be honest but getting this good of a price I don't honestly know. With this many players in the pot, I could be dominated by a higher flush draw and a higher straight draw.

The flop brings good news as I don't have to worry about making a straight or a flush. I somehow flop top two pair on a rainbow board. 4-3-2, pot is $150.

I check, UTG (the original preflop raiser) bets $80 into the world. Seems like he has an overpair at least. Folds to CO who calls, BU calls, SB folds, action on hero. Pot sits at $390.

What do you do here? I have $490 in front of me. All three players cover me. Do you see one more card come off or just pile it in here? Thoughts on pre?

Fold pre (lol).

As played, there's 390 in the pot and you have 475 back. If you jam, it's 865 in the pot and it's 395 for any of them to call. You're losing to 65, A5, & 22 (plus single combos of 44 and 33), and overpairs have 5 outs on the turn and 8 on the river to beat you. If you're NOT willing to put it in here on a highly favorable flop for 43s, you really need to examine why you called pre. Jam and accept the results, whatever they may be.

I know the flop action is obvious. This is one of the best flops for my hand.

Grunch

I'm one to say fold pre but I'm fine with a call here. Yes you could get dominated but you are closing the action and have great relative position.

Flop you didn't call this to play footsie on one of your best boards. I don't think anyone has 22 here and you want to charge all the aces drawing to the wheel. Time to get it in. I know a jam is about a pot sized bet but it's big enough that I don't think it gets the cry call from overpairs that you want. $320 now and then get the rest in at the next opportunity. You can also jam a non5 turn but I think charging people now and getting the field to fold its equity is a bit better.

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I disagree that the flop action is obvious. I think we can peel one here and see what happens. Protecting our hand isn’t that important to me. All the draws are obvious; if the turn is any card 7 to K (or a 4 or 3) we can feel better about our hand. And we can save money on a bad turn (or with a ton of turn action, given our relative position).

Preflop I fold but the big opening size compared to stack play heavily into that. Your going to have to play for stacks with any strong hand or good draw and your going to be short of fold equity. With effective around $1K I see the flop.

Your hand is probably best now and your situation more likely to get worse then better. The flop bet got 2 calls, against a LAG those don't require great but are not air either. When hero sticks around OOP against 3 opponents hero looks strong and there is a big risk that further action only happens if somebody gets lucky and draws out on hero. The only meaningful bet is shove so go ahead and do it.

Well, both calling and going all in have their pitfalls. If you call, there are a decent number of cards on the turn that will give you the worst hand. To me it seems that nobody will bet the turn unless they have you beat, so you're giving the field two free chances to beat you.

If you go all in, it's hard to imagine a worse hand calling. However your hand is likely best and the pot is already big. There's a ton of value in scooping a $390 most of the time without worrying about bad runouts.

Preflop is bad IMO, pot odds aren't as important as things like SPR, position, estimated equity, and implied odds / reverse implied odds.

Not if we lead the turn if we like it…

Fair enough, but other than the two remaining 4s and two remaining 3s, what turn cards do we like? At least one of our opponents likely has an overpair, and possibly more than one. We hate a 2, 5, 6, or A on the turn for sure, and otherwise, we don't know what cards we want to fade. Get it in now.

Just shove so shallow. Call pre is fine if game is soft and you're better than them - anything playable is making money. Shoving is max punishment for the likely OP betting 80 into the field.

It's all about position with this hand I may call in a blind vs blind spot but anywhere else it's raise or fold

I fold pre.

Lol at peeling in this spot. Ship it in. In the games I play in an over pair is usually calling here. And if everyone folds you’re picking up more than 2/3 of your stack size with no showdown. Peeling is terrible.

Live is super soft so I’m okay with the call here pre.

If we think we get called by a range that gives us enough equity to compensate us for when we run into a slowplayed set/A5/56, then so be it, ship. It’s interesting to me, though, that a lot of the people who want to ship are saying that the point of doing so is to end the hand now. Why do we have top 2 if our goal is to end the hand now? I’d rather ship with 75 than turn 2 pair into a bluff.

We are not turning top two into a bluff. We are raising to deny equity. The only logical raise given our stack size and the pot size is a shove. All Vs folding is a fine result. As cardsharkk has said, we increase our stack by 2/3 if this happens. And if we happen to run into a better flopped hand, so be it...we live with that result if we don't improve. Apart from flopping a royal, there are no guarantees in poker.

And, as I said in my first reply, fold pre! That said, as played, I see that on this flop Shove >>>>>>> Call > Fold.

To punish the OP for betting 80 and CO for calling when we have a range that ships pot, oh, and the laughably obvious part that goes along with punishing them which that you ship with both 75 and your 2pair because value and bluff are irrelevant terms on flops. We can ship with 66 too, and a who host of other hands when UTG just bets pot pot on a board where he has zero sets into 4-5 people or whatever. This isn't hard.

RESULTS: I jammed the flop.

UTG calls. Button called all-in for a little less.

UTG turns over 56s for the flopped nuts. Button has a set of deuces. Turn and river were no help.

That's living life, raise UTG with 56 and flop the joint against those 2 hands

...and that's why you fold pre

Ugh. Try to flop 6-5-2 next time you're in this spot!

If that’s the reason I should fold, then logically if I had won instead it would have been the reason why I should call.