About a month ago

H is playing 1/2 midweek. H has about 500 and is running pretty well. H is in MP and the UTG is on. No callers and H in MP limps in with 44

V (older white male who talked about playing in AC and CT poker rooms this past few weeks, who is playing snug raises to 30 in the SB (350ish effective), BB and Straddler calls (both have about 200 and less than SB).

H makes the call mainly because he is closing the action and will have position.

Is this a trivial fold pf?


Flop (120ish)

10c4d2s.

V bets out 100, both fold. Do we just call with our set or rip it in now?

Also if you have an OP here which I think V has 99% of the time would you have bet so big relative to the pot and with such a dry board?

Preflop is marginal. Stack sizes means it will be hard to get paid enough post flop if you do hit but your last to act preflop and will have position post. Mostly it's a question of how much you can extract from the preflop raiser if you do hit. If he will get all in with an over pair or TPTK then it's good, if he is going to shut down at some point with one pair then fold is better.

Post flop I would just call. The board is very dry and villain has to go first on the turn. I want to give him another chance to bet. Moving in now it is too easy for him to get away if he only has a pair or c-bet AK/AQ. I'm not concerned with giving him a free card on such a dry board, if he hits a higher set so be it.

You are correct that villain bet too big on the flop. Even if he wanted to go for straight value $60/$70 is fine on a drawless flop. It is a common mistake though, particularly if villain has QQ/JJ and doesn't want to risk an over card hitting.

Not a fan of the limp. AP easy call. I mean 4way to flop a 4 and closing the action. Easy call on this flop in position.

I'm assuming there is an UTG straddle? Pre is fine.

I can go either way on the flop. A raise might lose him, though, and a flat looks really strong. Probably just flat and call/shove turn.

Fold to the preflop raise. I don't think we're deep enough to play this hand (only 11-1 IO from preflop raiser) and of course we have RIO to consider...

AP, calling looks stronger than jamming this dry board lol. I'd prefer to jam it in and hope he's sticky, curious or indignant.

Never open-limp. It’s 2022 how are we still doing this? My God.

Just call on the flop, let him commit himself on the Turn, the only card that’s bad for your action is another T.

LOL. I totally disagree. Just because it's the "in" thing to never open limp doesn't mean it's always the right play. There are plenty of situations where open limping is just fine and sometimes it's the best play.

Pretty much this. I hate the open limp but given that you did, you have no choice but to call now closing the action.

Just flat the flop. It’s so dry, villain will likely fire the turn again with an overpair, can either flat again or shove, depends on the action and card.

Agreed. Although it's rare, depending on table dynamics, it's a great tool sometimes.

I prefer raising, although open limping small pp in a loose passive live game cant be too -ev

Lol at folding pre after 2 callers and in position

The advantage of limping this hand is you can still get the odds you need to set mine after a raise. If you raise and get 3 bet the spr isn't enough to set mine profitably. Since your best chance at a double up from set mining is against hands that will over pair the board or make TPTK and those are the hands most likely to 3 bet the stack sizes to me indicate the limp is better.

H does the worst of his options and shoves. V makes a snap call with pocket 10s. H somehow binks the case 4, deff a cooler or just another example of folding small pp pre?

The problem with shoving is he calls with better and folds a lot -- maybe you'll find someone who can't fold AA, but that's about it. Glad you binked. If you raise pre, and he flats, the same thing happens. If you start folding small PPs MP and later, you will leave a lot of money on the table.

Worst option? I think binking quads is the BEST option.

Seriously shoving is bad b/c while he may call w/ AA he may not and he's definitely calling with TT. Also, V is terrible. He flops the world and dominates the board and makes nearly a pot sized lead on the flop. He deserved his fate.

I open limped yesterday more than I ever have in my life. My casino was doing 20 minute high hands and I was at a table full of older loose passive players. I was open limping every suited ace and pocket pair knowing there would be no raise. Even binked quad 2s on one for some high hand $$. Was hoping to flush-over-flush someone in the marathon session, but it never happened.

@curdanol, it wasn't BBCC in NH was it? If it was thats my usual spot.

Exactly this!! There is definitely a limp frequency in my strategy pre. As mention, you raise n get 3bet you never get to realize your equity by having to fold a greater percentage of the time.

Definitely flat this particular board texture and bet sizing. Shouldn't have a issue getting stacks in later. If it were more draw heavy I like shoving here for balance.

I'm kind of surprised we have to say this here. Open limping is always -Ev or at least worse Ev than raising. Except from the SB when not chopping.

The only time it is done in tournaments is when effective stacks are small and ICM is in effect. But even then I basically don't do it except when I am in the SB and I want to induce a raise or just play the hand for half price.

One of the advantages of raising pre-flop is to "buy the BTN". Even if we can't get position post flop the fewer players behind us the better.

If nobody is raising over limps then nobody will be 3-betting unless they have AA/KK and maybe AK.

The problem with open limping pre-flop is it needs to be balanced (you have to have some big hands that you are limping) in order to not give away hand strength. I have rarely seen people do it in a balanced way unless they are always open limping at which point it is a disaster.

Instead of limping Hero should raise to $12.

The guy who raised might call and in general if he 3-bets would make it between $36 and $50. Which is still within the set mining range. If he makes it $60+ then yes we have to fold. But then we will be playing against somebody who will lose a ton of money against us when he over raises and we have very good hands.

What you miss when you don't raise is being able to win pots on the flop by c-betting when HU or 3-way (depending on the flop and position of opponents).

I don't play much 1/2 NL anymore but the the thing I love about it is the open limpers. I raise against limpers a lot (though not 7.5x OOP vs one limper) in order to buy the BTN but also to play decent hands in position against limpers.

As played I would call pre-flop because there are two other callers. But note that the raise sizing is way too much OOP vs just 1 player. My gut feeling is that its JJ. But it could be QQ/TT or even AK that doesn't want to play the hand OOP.

I generally prefer calling here on the Flop because we can't be representing any semi-bluffs and would we really be shoving with hands like AT? The problem though is that Villain likely has JJ/QQ and if we just call and a K or A hits it could keep the pot small. But the benefit of calling is that if Villain has no pair and a BDFD and/or BDSD and Villain improves on the turn he may bet small (in which case we jam) or shove (in which case we get the all in we wanted on the flop).

If Villain hits a 2 outer to beat us with a hand that might have folded to a flop shove then so be it.

I’ve been discovering that limpers will call ENORMOUS raises at $1-$2, to the point in my last session I was going up to 13x and still getting callers. (My loose formula was, if there was a limper, I would raise 10x, plus another x for every extra limper….but then do 12x if I was out of position).

Essentially, I would treat open limps like 3x raises, and then treat my raises like 3-bets. AND THEY KEPT ON CALLING!!!

(Their calls are even worse because we’re playing $2-$100 SPREAD-LIMIT, so they CANT “stack” me, the implied odds just aren’t there.)

Yup! My God the games were good that day.

Limping in 95+% of games is bad, but in games were literally no one is raising, I think limping with small-med pairs and suited aces is more profitable. If you miss, you're out $2. If you hit, you can drag a huge pot. These types of games are almost extinct, but they do still exist.

If you are in a very passive very stationy and sticky game open limping very speculative hands is a viable strategy. If we are not folding out opponents enough and people are not raising over limpers enough much less ever 3-betting we want as large SPR as possible with hands like 55 or A3ss. If you are playing a game where limps are raised and 3-bets common, by all means never open limp.

As for balance, at these levels people are only going to notice if you greatly vary your open sizes based on hand strength. There is no other need for balance. I think it's just silly to dogmatically say never do xxxx ever completely ignoring the game texture.