Hi All,

I have been lurking here a lot this year as I try to transition from low stakes limit to low stakes NL. I spend as much time reading strategy books and reading a dissecting posts on this forum as i do playing, but i think its time i start getting involved. As its my first post, i will do my best to follow the format and keep it simple.

This hand came a few months back and I haven't yet sorted out the merits of the decision I made and the options I didn't choose.


This was one of my first sessions and it was about an hour in. Few reads on others and few on me, but I'll include what I can



Villain 1: MAWG. been pretty tight, but raising if he is first one in. Hasnt shown down much, but when he does its good. $480

Villain 2: Middle aged woman. Been calling a folding a decent amount. $100

Hero: Been pretty tight, haven't had many hands. Won a few small pots, but nothing memorable.

On to the hand


$1/2 NL (10 handed)
Villain 1 UTG ($480)
Villian 2 UTG+1 ($100)
Hero B ($280)


V1 (utg) raises $7, V2 calls, 2 callers,

Hero has KQ
Hero calls , BB calls

V1 raised a lot so my only thinking as a newbie was that he could have anything decent (pairs, high cards, etc)


Flop ($42) A,7,4
V1 checks, V2 bets $10, folds to hero who calls, V1 check raises to $30, V2 mutters to herself, but calls anyway and its back to me.

My thinking at the time
Given his image so far (tight agg), that he was UTG with an initial PF raise, that he chose a check-raise instead a CB and that his CR seemed designed to build a pot, I put him on 77 or 44, but not AA and not a draw because I crippled the flush draws . I also consider my stack size versus his.
I included my read on him because its what I based my decision on and I am still not sure whether my decision based on this read is correct.

Hero?

Any feedback on different PF and flop actions are appreciated and I am very interested in the flop decision as played.


Thoughts, comments/questions

It's $20 to win $112, your getting the straight odds to see the next card so folding is out of question. You probably only get to see one card but V1's action is very consistent with a set so I you probably have no FE on a raise. I would call and hope to bink right away.

If you do catch your spade make it expensive to continue, your hand is obvious and you can't give the likely set a cheap river card. If you don't hit only continue if it's cheap and be very wary if V1 checks again and V2 bets, it's likely a trap.

A tight villains EP raising range has a lot of hands that dominate KQs but for a small raise after several callers I have no problem with it. Depending on V1's range for making the smallish EP raise this could be a good spot for a 3 bet but if he is the sort to bet smallish with big pairs it could be very bad.

Looks good. You're getting the direct odds to call.

Call. $10 into $42 is LOL sizing, and the raise to $30 isn't much better multiway.

If we bink on the turn, we should plan to play the hand fast. If we don't improve on the turn, we should check-fold, perhaps calling a single bet if the size is LOL small again.

As all your feedback is similar, a call and reevaluate on turn was clearly the best play, which is not what I did.

I can say that at this time (just moved from limit) I was doing all the wrong plays and was scared of getting stacked, yet I knew enough that this hand had value and couldn't be folded.

I think what makes this hand memorable is that it was the first time I devised a clear plan for a NL hand before acting and then followed it through. The fact that I had a plan makes it feel right, but this feedback helps me that the plan was wrong

Here is the rest of the hand
As i thought it likely he had a set, i considered a call, but figured it was too passive because if i missed the turn, I would have to call a bigger bet again, and if the river blanked, I'd fold having called off a lot of my stack (am and was still learning).

A fold was clearly out.

I decided a modest raise would let me know if i was behind and before acting i literally decided to find a price that only a set would re raise; and that if he did raise I could fold knowing i was behind. I decide a raise to 70 was enough to determine if he had a set. If he just calls, then my flush draw is likely to the nuts even if a pair comes and i have position.

I raised to 70, he snap raises all-in. V2 folds. I fold and state "nice set of 7's", he flips pocket 4's and we move on.

Up until tonight I was proud that I spent $40 bucks to find out I was behind before chasing a draw. Now i recognize that just cus I had a plan and followed it, doesnt mean the plan was the right one.




Glad I posted because having to write all this out has helped clarify the hand for me.

I appreciate the feedback.

It might just be my Agro nature, but I would like a raise to $30 vs the first $10 bet. It's possible that the V1 didn't want to cbet into 4 people when they hit nothing OTF. If you get check raised by them it's a pretty easy fold seeing how they are putting in the third bet with two people to act behind them. But there's a decent chance you can win the pot right then.


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This is so unbelievably bad, you have king high, you’re facing a bet, a check raise and a call. How do you not know if you’re behind or not?

The villains are terrible and gave you amazing odds to draw and stack them, so take it.

Amazing. Can't stop laughing at this scene.

I think sometimes people forget why we raise with draws, and that's because it's a semi bluff, and we get fold equity against made hands (often 1 pair).

After villain does that LOL c/r to $30, this screams set which he's never folding, we're not looking to put more money in until we make our draw. Take the nice odds and call, and then make a calculation again on the turn if you don't hit.

This HH makes me very sad. Please someone make TwoPlusTwo Great Again.

Well, the actual hand what you got is a drawing to the nuts. Still got nothing yet just possibilities like 9 outs or less in the best scenario. Now, all depends how deep the stacks are and what type opponent you got against you at the moment. The price seems to be good this time. So, in general when you’re drawing........, Not a good thing.

I'm a NL Holdem player. I start with the best hand, try to. When you’re a good player, you don’t get out there and draw a lot of times. Why don’t we like to draw? Well, we start with the best hand, that’s the reason. For big pots, big money, we got a good hand. Usually we got the best hand when big money goes in. I can’t help it if I get outdraw sometime. If my opponent has the best hand at the last card, he would be with the worst hand until that last card. He would have to outdraw me to take the pot away, and the player who stays with the worst hand, with the hopes of catching a winner, is going to go broke. (that’s a good Holdem player profile)

Agree with all the feedback. Not much else to add.

Thanks

You're getting almost 6:1 on a 4:1 shot ($20 to win $117), plus any future bets if your hand hits. With a bet, a check-raise against a flat call, and then a cold call of the check-raise, and with you closing the action getting this price it's +EV to call and -EV to raise or fold (less -EV than raising).

Call for your turn card all day, everyday in this spot. This is one of those rare spots where the |EV| of both raising and folding combined (still -) is less than calling.

Clear call with that action. You're getting a great price to chase a nut draw and it's likely one other player has a strong hand. Donk near pot if the spade comes and get paid. Raising would be bad because it's hard for you to represent a strong hand, and more importantly you are facing a bet/call and a raise, certainly two reasonable made hands.

You could raise the $10 donk bet on the flop depending on opponents (with the plan of betting any turn), but if they're not folding any Ax then calling is fine.

Preflop could be a 3b as well but don't blame you for not wanting to play a 3b pot somewhat deep OOP against an aggressive player, and calling multiway with suited, connected broadway is totally fine. KQo on the other hand would be a clear 3b. There's a ton of money in the pot already, UTG has a very weak range because he is raising so often, and it's unlikely anyone behind merely called with a premium hand. A 3b should win it preflop a lot of the time, and when it doesn't you have a playable hand postflop.

The raise to $70 is really bad. I don't really understand your reasoning behind it. You are reopening the action to a strong range when you have a hand that really wants to see the turn. The fact that you didn't should make you really sad.

It does. It was a bad play and i should feel bad.

I am smart enough to know why I made the raise at the time, but not smart enough to just how bad it was.....

In hindsight, I was afraid of losing my stack on a draw, either by missing spade on turn and river, knowing it was gonna be expensive; or by turning flush and losing to a paired river.

It comes down to me having no real comfort with the risk of NL at the time. I have put in a little over 200 hours of live play in since I switched from limit and this comes at about hour 20 (second or third session).

My bankroll is much bigger, as is my understanding of the game, and my comfort with all-in play; however I still feel like my skills are extremely shallow; which i was I spend most nights studying the game.
Thanks

^You're humility will save you more money than your skills will in the long term.

Haha, you shouldn't literally feel bad. You are just learning the game. Just keep studying and playing and you will get it. You are already on track to be better than most players just by having the mind to study. Just look at all the old regs who have been playing for years and somehow still suck.

LOL.

No one likes being a donkey, but I have been getting better.

thanks

First off, kudos for being the first person in the history of the internet to ask for advice, receive it, and accept it with humility rather than immediately disagreeing with it and leaving everyone questioning why you asked in the first place. Refreshing change of pace.

I think your issue is with the bolded part. You never have to go broke with this draw here. Calling the small flop bet and folding to a big bet on the turn if you whiff is a perfectly acceptable line while drawing to the nuts. Just because V is giving you odds on one street doesn't mean you have to accept bad odds on a later street.