Live 2/5
Villain 1 (CO) - Regular at the casino, plays tight for the most part but spazzes out a lot and will raise/reraise with garbage. Was playing crazy earlier, rebought twice, and now built back a stack and started playing very tight. Covers all stacks.

Villain 2 (BTN) - Playing ABC. On the tighter side but not a nit. Not much of a read beyond that. Stack $210

I have ~$450 to start.

Folds to me in HJ, I raise to $25 with 67hh, CO makes it $55, BTN calls, I call

Flop K54r (1 heart) (Pot ~$165)
I chk, CO bets $125, BTN goes all in $150, I call, CO calls

Turn 7x (Pot $615)
I chk, BTN goes all in ~$250, I call

PF I feel like I have to call since it's only $30 more. This is about the best I can hope to flop and CO may not actually have a hand here, so I chked to see what he would do. After he bet and BTN went all in, I felt like I was priced in and had to call. Also, if CO didn't have a very strong hand or a hand like QQ/JJ he would prob give me a free river since there is no side pot. If he has air, he can't bet since BTN is all in.

On the turn I pick up a pair and he shoves and I just get priced in to call off the rest of my stack. Should I just be folding PF here ? This is like the best flop I can hope for and I was still forced to call off my stack with like 30% equity.

I think it went wrong preflop. For me against the CO's mentality as described and the BTN who is short stacked I think your raise from the HJ seat is not favorable for you.

I don't really like your call of 30 more preflop into a pot of 30 more against 2 villains with position and for the reasons in my first paragraph. You need to flop really hard and I think this is a -EV call.

As played, once you call the PFR and you flop an up and down I think you are committed once the CO bets and the button shoves.

You pick up a pair on the turn so I think its a marginal call here with just about the right odds to call.

I don't like making it 5x with our hand, make it 3/3.5 , check/shove flop once you flop a draw with a backdoor flushdraw in a 3bet pot, you are pretty much commited, and you can get our 3bettor to fold better hands like JJ/QQ

I don't know that you did anything "wrong" here. I call preflop getting 4.5:1 on my call with a well disguised hand.

While I don't think that check-raising all-in is a terrible play here...wait, no, I do think it is fairly bad. You can call the $150, knowing you are getting 440:150 odds immediately on your draw with the original bettor being able to do nothing more than call because the button has made less than a full raise behind. CO will most likely call with almost anything for $25 more, so that ups your odds to 465:150 with a 7 high hand that is drawing to the nuts (therefore it doesn't fear opponents).

I agree that the CO is likely to check behind on this turn after the Button's and your action. You may get to see 2 streets getting 3:1 with a draw that is about 2:1 to hit.

As the turn plays out, I think you have to call getting over 3:1 with what may be a better hand than what the CO holds and a solid draw.

How is this a -EV call???? The pot is 2x55+25+5+2 so let's say 140$ and he has to call 30$ to win 140$ he is getting almost 5 to 1 on his money.

Nothing was done wrong in the hand the way it played out. The only thing you could of done differently is not raise in HJ but raising is perfectly fine.

Now I've never claimed to be an expert or always be right but I will reluctantly justify why I believe this is a marginal call preflop.

I certainly show respect for all 2+2ers viewpoints even if they are just out and out incorrect. I generally believe the vast majority of active posters have the best intentions and this forum is for all of us to learn and develop our game.

I will still go as far as saying that its verging on a -ev call preflop.

$30 into $140 is 4.66 to 1 to be exact. That is not to win $140 to quote you, as its highly unlikely you'll flop the nuts!

I will also clarify to you just in case you were not aware that with two suited connectors the odds of flopping a straight or flush draw is 4.2 to one. Yeah, you could flop trips or two pair, a FH, but so could one of the villains, so IMO you equity increase id negligible.

Then Sir, you have to get there and make your flush or straight!! The pot is just 3 way, you are out of position, to the preflop aggressor and the button who only has 42BB's to start the hand with, which is another factor which makes playing this hand suck IMO.

You as hero only have 90BB to start the hand with so our implied odds are pretty limited in what is already a bloated pot preflop.

So, I will stand by my viewpoint until someone corrects me.

A raise preflop, to 15 or 20 may have been more favorable.

the problem with this hand is exactly what the problem with most hands are at 2/5 when you have a starting stack, which is that you're simply not deep enough to be playing this hand as you did.

you have less than 100 BB, which at a live cash game is a short stack. $25 preflop is a little much. in all honesty you probably should have just limped, at the most made it $15, maaaybe $20. but you just aren't deep enough to raise a hand like this. you won't hit the flop hard enough often enough, and then when you do you still have to manage to get paid off.

ignoring the preflop argument, flatting $150 on the flop is the major leak here imo. over 40% of your stack is now in the pot, which means you really can't fold any turn. I don't think you should fold either. your best move was to ship for the extra $250.

raising with suited connectors and/or calling 3bets is really a deep stack tactic, in the future i'd avoid doing this with less than 200BB.

I'm a little confused here.
He has 8 outs to hit the OESD, Rougly 17% chance per street on the turn and river, where's the 2:1 come from?

Anyway here's my thinking:

Pre- Yes you're getting good pot odds, however you're OOP, and its pretty difficult to play draws OOP. With 7/8 you're playing for implied odds, which you don't have against a shorty, and it's somewhat sketchy with both you and CO not even been at full. You also stated both villains have been pretty tight, why do you think all of a sudden he's making a move with air?

On the flop I wouldn't count the 7s, or 6s as outs yet as it's not going to improve him much. With the action so far I can't imagine a pair of 6/7 is any good. But OP is getting about 3:1 with 2 cards to come. However that's also pending CO doesn't bet the turn. Here the call is pretty much even. However unless your guy had been 3 betting light, which you said he hadn't been recently, then you can't discount KK from his range. Anyway you're break even at best here, you're actually slightly behind. Either calling or folding could be correct.

However on the turn he does pick up 2 additional outs bringing him up to roughly 20%, or 5:1. That's also considering trip 7s would be good (which it may not). Anyway the pot of 250 into 865 is about 3.5:1. You're 5:1 so calling here is a mistake from the math perspective.

Arguments could be made for both sides, however I think being OOP, not deep, and against a shorty you need to REALLY hit the flop to continue. You picked up a nice draw, but with all that action not nice enough that I'd stay in the hand. That's one of the problems with trying to play those types of hands out of position.

Urielx, to make a straight on the turn and river the odds are much closer to 2:1 than 3:1. In fact it's actually 2.2:1.

Even going on your 17% per street, that's 34% on both streets which is 2:1 not 3:1.

;-)

Yeah I totally ******ed up the equity to odds this morning! Shouldn't post before having coffee and waking up.
Sorry Main!

So flop play is right, river is still wrong.

I like this response in some respects, but when you are getting nearly correct immediate pot odds (a rarity in NL Hold'em, in my experience), you have to take it. The implied odds are less of a concern.

I guess to put this idea into a more tangible context, you'd need the following to happen to make the flop call of $150 profitable:

1 - Hit your draw on the turn, dodge whatever redraw outs CO may or may not have and extract >~$150 of value from CO over the final 2 streets. (The pot is offering you OVER 3:1 or 450:150, while you are ~4:1 to make your hand on the turn.)
2 - See the turn and river for just the $150 flop call, getting 3:1 on your money, with slightly worse than 2:1 odds to make your hand.

I think these two ideas are related. If the CO doesn't have the kind of hand that will pay off $150+, then you probably see the turn and river for the original $150 bet.

This thinking isn't flawless or a guarantee that exactly that will happen since poker is a game of incomplete or imperfect information. It sucks when you are faced with a turn bet from CO, but these are the things I'd be considering when deciding how to act on the Button's $150 push. I guess the thing that scares me most about calling the $150 bet from button is that you get no information from CO about the strength of his hand since he is locked into calling or folding based on the size of the Button's raise.

(I'm relatively new to this strategy posting thing, so I wouldn't be shocked to learn that the logic I've been employing is seriously flawed.)

I fold at any point in the hand.

I didn't think checkraising the flop was a good play. If I get CO to fold, how does that help me ? I still have to beat BTN who prob has a king or at least a high pocket pair. I would rather have CO put in the rest of his money so I have better odds (if I choose not to fold flop).

On the turn I was ~30% to win the hand, so calling there wasn't really a decision. Getting over 3:1 it was a way +EV call.

I forgot to include that pf there was one guy that posted, that's why I made it $25 instead of my usual $20.

I think the people that said fold PF may be correct, but I'm not sure. Most people here are not advocating a fold pf to the 3-bet but then it seems like I get forced to put in my stack as a dog. I'm not really sure.

No one has mentioned PF 4b. I think this is actually a good spot to 4b light.

- The CO 3b range should still fold to most 4b (unless your image sucks against him). He's certainly capable of 3b light and he's protecting his profit so a 4b will make him play "honestly" based on your read, which means folding out most of his junk, and many of his marginal value hands.
- It's likely that our nearly-nitty BTN just flatted the PFR because he doesn't want to stack off. He doesn't have any problem finding the fold button, so let's give him another opportunity right here.
- I'd certainly rather have 76s against AA/KK than QQ. When called, you still have equity.

Calling PF is never terrible here. You'll flop a hand you want to continue with (fd/OESD, combo draw, 2pair+) 25% of the time. You're getting better than 3:1 immediate odds; while your implieds aren't great b/c of the btn short stack, the CO's play suggests you can still get paid off well if you hit. Even if you flop the nuts and everyone folds, it's still a winning call PF. Folding is a much bigger mistake than calling.

I don't think folding flop here is bad. Once you call, you commit yourself, and while CO certainly can be messing around, he's probably pretty well ahead of your 7hi w/ OESD. It's a bit unlikely that he's 3b PF and 3/4 potting the flop, (putting BTN all in and committing you) with a hand that doesn't want to put you all-in on the turn (if, as you say, he's tightened up). It also seems strange to me that we would expect CO to fold to our flop c/r for just $250 more. He'd be getting better than 3:1. I think it's equally unlikely that he's plowing out a 3/4 pot bet here after 3b PF with the intention of folding. Your best case scenario on the flop is to get heads up against the btn as a 2:1 dog getting 3:1. While it's a profitable spot over time, that's not really the "winning" situation I play for. Obviously, as results demonstrate, at least some of the time (if not most of the time, given the sizing on COs flop bet) you don't get that best case scenario. To me, that negates the equity advantage you have from calling, because when you get all in on the flop, you actually don't have adequate pot odds. IMO flop call is -EV. Flop shove is defensible, but I do not recommend it.

As played, you can't fold turn. But this hand should demonstrate how playing passively and calling OOP with a weak draw in a protected pot can cause you to get stacked pretty often. If you want to play loose passive, it's best to run good. Work on that.

Disagree -- I used to use 'pot odds' as logical justification myself, but they aren't the absolute means of decision making. In fact, the ONLY time I even consider pot odds now is when I'm considering an all-in shove. So they're probably being misapplied in this context.

Consider this line of reasoning instead:

"The only time I'm going to get paid off here is if I flop a flush/straight and he catches a set, or if I catch two pair to his overpair."

obviously this is going to be player-dependent; some players are more likely to nit up and others are going to be bluffing with higher frequency. But you can see how this line of reasoning, coupled with range+combinatorics, can leave us with a much less murky situation than the pot odds-only line of reasoning.

ex:

you raise, Villain 3bets, other villain cold-calls. if you call the last $30, it sets up a $165 pot, and effective stacks remaining are $395.

so the stack to pot ratio is 2.5:1, meaning that on almost any flop, you're going to be all in on the turn almost every time.

Now is where I think the pot odds/reverse implied odds idea comes into play. without delving into the numbers, you should understand the following:

1. a read/range analysis of the villains (what types of hands do they have?) (v1 = fairly wide) (v2 = JJ+, AQs+)
2. if I call, what will the SPR be for this hand? (2.5 to one, which means I'll be all in on most turns)
3. how does my hand hold up against their ranges? (badly. it's a drawing hand and needs position to play well)

So IMO, your thought process PREFLOP should be something like, "Pot odds look fantastic, but if I call here, I'm going to be committed on the turn. I don't hit that often, and since I'm OOP, it's going to be much tougher to get paid. So essentially, this is calling and hoping for a cooler. Is this +EV? <use pot odds> NO. Fold"

But I have called in these situations before. At first due to lack of education, and currently I'll call because I'm tilted.

As played, I c/r all in on the flop.

+1

I'm not sure I like 4 betting at all. I mean honestly a lot of people in this thread are assuming that CO is 3 betting light, but OP said he hadn't been getting out of line recently. 4 betting here would essentially be the same as just raise/shoving with 7/8 which is just bad.

I'm more likely to assume that both players are tighter and have pretty strong 3 bet and 3 bet calling ranges respectively. So postflop when the action gets heavy I think at the very least we're looking at made hands. With BTN being ABC I'm not expecting him to be calling an AI with anything less then sets, a strong K, and maybe AA.

Of course these ARE the types of hands we want to be playing against with the connectors as both CO and BTN are unlikely to be on any kind of draw. I just don't think playing for stacks in this particular spot is the best.