$1/2
effective stacks $250

Hero UTG +2 - opens to $10 with KQ
V1 MP(unknown) calls
V2 CO (aggro fish) 3B to $30

Hero calls, MP calls

Flop: K8 3

Hero checks.
V1 MP jams all in $195
V2 Tank folds.
Hero?

As played?
what Does MP Jam with here? sets to bring along CO (pre 3-better) along with him?? Draws are limited to Diamond hands. Inferior Kx hands?? I have no reads/no info on villain. The perils of live poker lol

Pre flop - feel happy calling vs any other decision given its playability. Could be called wrong but seems pretty OK.

How is it that you have no information on V1? Is it a male or female? Old, middle aged, young? Ethnicity? Does he look like an experienced player? Does he handle chips well or fumble them?

I'm probably calling. He/She has a whole lot more diamond draw combinations than value combinations.

ok some limited info - white male 30's, observed 1 orbit of play. no raised hands. appeared figety!! (does that make him more likely a gambler?)

my belief is its a sigh call.

Are you calling preflop because you believe that you can flop a K or Q and be ahead of CO's range for putting more money in? If so, then I guess that's OK.

As played, in my player pool this would probably be a call. The all in says, "I want to be done with this hand because my hand's not good enough for me to feel good about future action." Where I play, people might show up with 8x, or sometimes Kx. I'd probably run into AK here on occasion but I wouldn't want to fold the best hand when my opponent has KJ/KT or something like that.

I don't know exactly what to tell you since I don't know much about your particular Villain, though.

hardly

still need to snap this. prob KJ too and AQ-AT diamonds as well tho these are close

I think im looking at it from the 'in the absence of reads, how do we deal with this spot' - there are players in my pool that fit the description you gave there & i know exactly how to proceed.

something to ask you about there - KQss once facing 3bet we strongly consider folding?

of my utg+2 opening range 66-AA A10ss+ AKo AQo KQss KJss, A5/4/3/2ss what proportion are you keeping with regards to facing 3bets? my usual plan is to continue with with ~50% .

the sq is small
flat the mid pairs and the best broadways you're not 4b.
QQ+,AK you want to 4b and stack off, throw in A5s/A4s as 4b/folds

I'm folding this. It's just not worth it for such a large price, and a lot of players will play AK offsuit this way.

:grunch:

Against an unknown i'm probably folding this. If it was V2 i'd probably stack off but it's really rare in my games to see some generic villain blast 2x the pot with anything we beat. I'm not at my desk though so I haven't run the ranges to see what the math says.

Hardly what? Using one word to dismiss another post in this forum doesn't garner any respect in my experience.

But it seems that you agree. So can you explain why we need to "snap this" when you seem to disagree with the basis of my argument, which is that villain has more bluffs than value combinations? If I was wrong, then snap calling is wrong too.

I know you have a bazillion posts and you've obviously been around poker a long time, but if you're 4b/folding weak suited aces, then you have serious leaks in your game. Or maybe you just play 1/2 and 1/3 with players that have the skill set of 5-10 and 10-20 regs.

pot odds and equity vs v's perceived range says call
my estimate of his range might be off but you don't >50% eq to call his bet

not a leak at any stakes to have 4b/folds

The fact that he jammed before the 3bettor did anything makes me want to call. He didnt give him a chance to bet becasue he wanted him to fold. Not feel priced in.

If we're folding this flop we should be folding preflop, I'd like a 4bet to $85 or so against this villain type, as played snap call this.

It’s a leak at 1/3 and 2/5 live to be having 4-bet bluffs against 95% of the pool. It’s funny of me to ask this since i rarely even play live, but do you even play live? Anybody who’s played live for even a month or lurked these forums would know that is false at live poker. 4b bluffing in general at 5nl-25nl is also a leak as well on most sites.

Theres been a lot of this lately. Usually by 15k+ posters who just slum it up in LLSNL once a week to talk down to everybody. IONUTD isn't one of those guys but it is annoying to get a absolute response in a very vague way. As he said afterwards, with the money in the pot its an easy call and the only reason why people ITT would say fold is because of the bias that whenever someone posts a hand on here 99% of the time its because they lost. OP wouldn't have posted this HH if he snapped V off and got shown a J high FD.

This line isn't too uncommon from inexperienced players. I actually was just today at the table against an unknown player who took this same line 3 times in less than an hour. He would call PF then overbet jam the flop when action was on him, irregardless to his position relative to the PF aggressor. He finally was felted on his third attempt when he jammed Q10 on a Q high board and ran into KK.

IME, the scenario I just mentioned usually describes the range of Vs that take this line. The range is heavily weighted towards middling to sometimes strong TP hands that just want to take the pot right now. Sure, he could have AK or some 2p+ combos here, but TP 2nd K is too strong for me to fold in this spot with how often I see Vs show up with weaker TP hands. The fact that this was a 3! pot makes things a bit dicier because in theory V should have fewer K-rag combos, but by the same token he shouldn't have 2p combos either. I really wouldn't expect sets to be played like this either, so I'm still willing to call it off here and expect to only be losing to AK. JMO

You should only feel happy calling because of the "aggro fish". If you're calling squeezes regularly in live poker with K high, you're burning money against most players.

AP otf I don't mind folding. I actually think calling is slightly -EV. Vs a slightly above 2x overbet you need to be right slightly over 40% of the time, i.e. >40% equity. With rake, you might need 41-43%. Even vs the NFD you are barely ahead, and if he shows you a set here every once in a while and a decent amt AK, you are losing some money overall. I really doubt he's open jamming over 2x pot with 3x, 8x, random PP, etc. It seems like the NFD, AK, maybe KQ but unlikely, or occasionally a set

agreed on previous post - im not calling OOP vs reg "happily" - aggro fish is the dream opponent for these playable hands imo when oop.

So, result was me tank folding. I was on the fence for around 1-2minutes when villain promised to show if i folded to him - which is a mistake on his part perhaps - non-reg players unwittingly reveal something about their intentions (be it honest or dishonest) in these spots with good frequency -

in the end i mucked face up and he showed K3 off....tagged as fish.

however, the purpose of this post (and why i put Hero has no reads) - was if he kept his mouth shut i was right on the fence of actually making a call. My interest was from theoretical point of view what the right play would.

got a lot of good and interesting view points. Cheers ^^

A good player isn't going to do this with any of those hands. We have to assume that V isn't a very good player. And I think there are a few flush draws and weaker kings he does this with along with his value hands. When you start adding in hands like QJ, JT, KJ and some KT the call becomes a lot clearer.

Against this range:

88,33,AKs,AdQd,AdJd,AdTd,Ad9d,Ad8d,Ad7d,Ad6d,Ad5d, Ad4d,Ad3d,Ad2d,K9s+,QdJd,QdTd,Qd9d,JdTd,Jd9d,Td9d, 7d6d,6d5d,5d4d,AKo,KTo+

We have 54.8% equity.

If we take out some of the non-nut flush draws and weaker kings:

88,33,AKs,AdQd,AdJd,AdTd,Ad9d,Ad8d,Ad7d,Ad6d,Ad5d, Ad4d,Ad3d,Ad2d,KTs+,QdJd,QdTd,JdTd,Jd9d,Td9d,7d6d, 6d5d,AKo,KJo+

We still have 49.2%.

It's not until we trim his range down to:

88,33,AKs,AdQd,AdJd,AdTd,Ad9d,Ad8d,Ad7d,Ad6d,Ad5d, Ad4d,Ad3d,Ad2d,KJs+,QdJd,QdTd,JdTd,Jd9d,Td9d,AKo,K Qo

That we end up at 40.7%.

Which I honestly think is too narrow. Remember V jammed for 2x pot here. He is not trying to get called and I think that keeps his range wide.

haha "Remember V jammed for 2x pot here" is an important consideration still. good point.

The problem is that he isn’t a good player, so it’s irrelevant what a good player here would do or not. A good player doesnt even have a 2x pot overshove range here in the first place.

You don’t know that he’s not trying to get called. Giving him so many diamond draws and weaker Kx than KQ is really optimistic when everyone knows the 3-bettor “always” has lol AK. Even giving him KQo is extremely optimistic. Giving him full weight is also a ranging mistake. Your range is implying he has KQ here 8-10% of the time (guesstimating). Unless im counting combos wrong, your first range is giving around 40-60% of his 2x overbet shoving range to include weaker Kx than AK, which seems extremely unrealistic.

He showed up with K3 here. Surprising with his exact hand but the fact he was strong doesnt surprise me at all.