i don't know if he's leveling...

That's kind of a big raise on a drawless board. It's the kind of raise that everyone says, "I know you have nothing" but then folds everything short of trips----> I think it's often a bluff.

Also, what's the purpose of villain taking the c/c line on the turn with 4x?

To me, villain is not ready to get it all in with his holding (whatever it is), so I'm betting 900 on the river as opposed to shipping.

Well he's disagreeing with every post in every thread, so I just assumed...

He c/c'd the turn because he's playing the board for kicker. Just because he's worried doesn't mean he's gonna fold. If he actually has Ax, he might well feel entitled to win now that he's improved on the turn. I just think very few hands will call 900 but fold to a shove.

Edit: Thinking about it more, maybe 900 is better given our turn bet-size, but I would still rather have bet 650 on the turn and shoved the river.

All good points folks (except fo the possible levels?)...thanks.

I think maybe a bigger turn bet was in order here, but I kind of messed up because I failed to realize that with any 4x (other than K4, A4), he was playing the baord for kicker. So, I bet smallish to allow for Kx to remain in his range and call. This might be an error...not sure.

I ended up choosing a valuey size on the river...$800. Villain tanked for a full minute and then reluctantly folded.

So the big thing for me is that if he did indeed fold 4x (no guarantees), what is a better combo turn/river line to extract more than $400 total? Should I have bet weak on the river? Chack the turn and overbet pot on the river?

As per my other posts, I feel like my sizing in thhese spots (nuts on turn/still on river) is becoming too value oriented only and decent players are sniffing it out.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Shorn

Hand 1 you have the nuts on the turn with a disguised hand, your hand could still be vulnerable to a few river cards, while there are tons of cards that could shut down action from villains on the river. therefore I prefer to lead out hoping for a raise because this is where you get most value from opponents not the river IMO. by leading turn 2pairs and a set or overpair would often not give you credit and think you're making a blocking bet which is a mistake you want them to make.

Hand 2 I'm probably in the minority here but I would look at building the pot right there on the flop because it's limped pre and we dont have to worry about KK, its multiway someone should have a 4 esp. since it's bet-call-call to you. By raising flop you are putting the decision to someone with KQ/AK/even KJ if he's bad, or 34/45/46/etc to make a mistake on the flop which could have him pot-committed with a worse kicker by the turn. the raise doesnt have to be big, it could be whatever that your image allows you to make, for eg. if you usually raise with TPTK then size it the same. If you've bluffed and shown the bluff then size it the same as the bluff, etc. you dont want inferior hands that could stack off to have a chance of folding later on because the pot's not big enough so you want to build the pot early esp. when they've shown that they could have something worth putting in lots of $$$ with, and a flop raise is often not viewed by some as a monster hand but turn aggression is. think of it from good player's perspective, if he has 4x he's not going to fold to a flop raise, but he's going to treat overcallers on the flop who act aggressively on the turn with a lot of respect. a good player in fact sometimes would view an overcaller's strength(especially after 2 calls) almost the same as the strength of someone who raises, or even stronger.

When villain c/r'd the flop from 75 to 375 did you think he had a 4 or was making a move/merging a K? When I read your op (including villain's description) my immediate read was that it was the latter. Therefore I think you played the hand perfectly.

If you thought villain actually had a 4 (turns out he most likely did not, given that he folded to your small river bet), I agree with 663366 that you should have never stopped raising on the flop until all the money was in.

Btw, it's a good problem to have, always trying to figure out how to make villains pay you off. Lately all I'm ever doing is looking for new, spewtarded ways to get them to fold .

Well, given Villain's history, I thought his range included a lot of Kx's and 4x on the flop as well as air. He had been pretty aggressive from the blinds so it certainly was not clear that he had a 4 there.

What changed my mind was when he called 40% pot on the turn after checking. I suppose he could still have Kx or AK, but IMO, his range weighted more heavily toward 4x after that action since my line looks pretty strong (call $75, call an extra $300 and then fire $400). But, given that he folded the river getting 3.5-1, it appears more likely that he didn't have a 4 since he splits unless I boated up given the board. Still not sure, but the discussion was helpful anyway.

Yes it is a good problem to have I suppose realtive to the other alternatives (including, apparently, your spewtardiness.)

Shorn

How about just breaking his hand down into 2 categories:

1. Trips+
2. Less than trips

After his flop c/r what percentage did you think he had of each?

After his turn check?

After he flatted your turn bet?

And finally, after he checked the river to you?

Your answer to these questions should be the guide to your betsizing imo/ they should tell you if you played the hand optimally.