Hero has $1400 playing 1/2

V1: An older asian male, but very tight/passive. I've seen him go to showdown twice in the last 30 minutes. The first hand he opens to $10, gets called and 2 spots, then the BB shoves for $200. After tanking for 2minutes V1 calls and tables KK, announcing he thought BB had aces (he wasn't trying to induce a call from the two callers). The second hand, he called my $10 open from the BB in a 4way pot, checks around on a K65 board, turn is a 6 and he check/calls my $20 bet, then check/calls my $50 bet on a 2 river and shows A6. IMO that is extremely tight to not raise OTT or OT

V1 has $760 behind

V2 has ~$800 behind, no real reads

V3 has $120 behind and is just there to gamble

V4 No reads, $250 behind

On to the hand...


V2 opens UTG for $15, Hero has 77 in MP and calls. V4 calls from the CO, V3 calls from the BTN and V1 calls from the BB

Flop: 278 (pot $76)

V1 Checks, V2 leads for $60. I think for a minute on whether to raise or flat, and eventually decide to raise to $160 on this draw heavy of a board since im both deep and multi-way, knowing V2 likely has an overpair.

V4 folds, V3 shoves for $105. V1 thinks for about 10 seconds then shoves for $745. V2 looks disgusted and it folds to me.

I tank for a minute before flipping my hand over to show everybody I have a really difficult decision. After 5 minutes of tanking I declare how badly I want to fold, I eventually call, with my thought process being this:

V2 looks very strong leading into 4 players on that flop, so my raise looks insanely strong as well. Once V3 has already shoved for his stack, I feel like there would be no point to be isolating with a huge overshove if he had a hand like 56 or 9Ten, not to mention he seemed to tight to be shoving there with a combo draw, thought it is possible. So I felt like my range had more combo draws, making me believe the only hands that made sense were 22 and 88 (and possibly 78).

So, if my reasoning is correct, then it's $585 more for me to call to win $1,146, so I have to be good 1/3 of the time, and if his range is 88/22 then I'm good 1/2 of the time, making it profitable. Is that spot on?
I feel like most people would say you can never fold here, but I don't even know if he's shoving 22 there instead of flatting. Additionally, how deep do you have to be and how good of a read on a player do you need before you'd consider folding? (I've yet to fold a set post flop or KK preflop when I felt it was correct given reads/stacks, but I've vowed to at least do one of those things)

fist pump, snap calling...

You can add a lot of monster draws in his range. Call.

I already addressed that. He's a tight player and another play is already all in, there's no value in shoving his monster draws and isolating me. I expect him to be flatting the $160 with those hands, as he would also want the overpair to call since we're all $800 deep effectively.

Yeah I mean, theres 3 combos of 78, 3 combos of 22 and 3 combos of 88. While I would shove 78 there (and most would), the A6 hand makes me really skeptical that he would shove 78 there. He put somebody on AA for shoving pre, and didn't raise me with trips top kicker because he probably put me on kings full.

There's no way on gods green earth I find a fold here. Regardless of read.

A8cc is also in his range.

You really think 22 is just calling, to just be completely lost on any club or straightening card or even a board pairing. I think you more wanted to show off or give yourself an "ego freeroll" as in, as in you tank with middle set, and you call and you win, its genius, and if you tank and call and you lose, you can say you almost folded

what a slowroll
looks like nit on nit violation here.

snap it off, cooler like set over set are not gonna effect your long term winrate, unless of course you are making a habit of folding middle sets on drawy boards to flop shoves...

I'm happily getting it in with middle set on this board. I would probably think about it only long enough to figure out which hand I was going to fist pump with.

Doubt this is even a thread if V1 doesn't show up with 88 here.

if V legit tank calls 100bb PFAI with KK afraid of AA and doesnt bet/raise Trips-TK OTT OR OTR on the driest board possibly, you are never ahead here.

math says you call because he could have 22 in his range, but his range is basically always {88} when he slings in 400bb. V is an ubernit, don't feed him.

How in god's name is calling a raise from the BB with A6os "tight?"

The only decision point in this hand (imo) is whether V is the type to only shovel money in the pot with the stone cold nuts, or only shovels money in when he's scared to death of draws hitting. Your read given doesn't as given doesn't say much about when he's the aggressor.

imo V is a mega nit and relevant hand history says he's got the nuts here. There was so much action before him and we have two occasions of him being a nit with the effective nuts. Hard to fold though.

V isn't necessarily a mega nit (calling A6 from bb) -- he's just scared of monsters, so 88 is his most likely holding. However, he could have a few other hands, and I just can't fold middle set here.

This.

If V1 has 88 its just a cooler, never folding here.

Call with 77, but 22 is probably a fold against described V for this stack depth. Even nits are generally willing to stackoff with any set before the straight or flush comes in.
You should definitely not show your hand to tank for 5 minutes. It is nothing more than pure hollywood. You should never show that fold if you were serious about folding, but I suspect you were 100% calling and just wanted to take your time.

If I'm tanking with mid set, I'm posting the hand regardless of results. Even though you're probably right.

Thank you for actually being one of the only people to address the main point of this thread, which wasn't just whether or not to shovel in 400bbs in with the 2nd nuts, but whether or not to do it given a read on a player.

He closed the action 4ways with the A6 hand so it's not terrible to defend his BB there. But regardless, even with potential loose pre tendencies, what I picked up was passive post-flop.

I'm not going to really address the issue of me flipping my hand over for ego/hollywood reasons, because frankly it's silly and just derailing the thread. I just didn't want somebody to call clock on me while I was trying to think, and no I was not 100% calling, I was seriously considering a fold.
But yeah, after I thought about it more, I think it's a call with mid-set and I'm folding bottom set.

Fist pump snap call, sorry you got coolered

lol goddamit, don't assume I got coolered. While most would only post this if they got coolered, I would post it even if I won because obviously winning doesn't mean you made the correct play.

I don't think the read is sufficient to discount 22 enough, so I would call. I agree that it is a tough call. I think showing your hand was bad for your table image, so I would say don't do that. If you called and lost without showing, nobody would ever know you tanked with the 2nd nuts.

These spots hardly matter in the long run as long as you're reasonable.

I mean i knows it gross but especially with the overlay you are getting I'm not ever folding when there are only 3 combos that beat me. Also folding and seeing 22 or 78 feels WAY worse than calling and seeing 88.

Lol to be honest I thought my tank was going to never end, what motivated my hand to put the chips in the middle was the thought of me folding and him flipping over 22 (since the short stacker was all in I'd have to see his hand).

Can JJ-QQ-KK play this way? A lot of super nit Villains in my game don't re-raise with these hands if the pot is already raised in front of them but then play them like crazy on the flop when there is no over card (specially an ace).

I did consider the possibility that he flatted with AA/KK pre and is now shoving, but concluded he should very rarely be showing up with those hands in this spot, if ever.