Hero (4000): LAG image
V1 (3000): Really good TAG player, going for the nitty side. He practically lives in the casinos home/games. Ex winning online player that is now playing full time live
V2 (3500): Textbook TAG player. One of the biggest winner in the poker room. Very balanced player. We talk a lot of strategy together. He studies a lot

OTH
Blinds 5-10
There is a 25 straddle

V2 opens to 75 on UTG, 1 fish calls, Hero is on the button and 3bets to 375 with KdKc, V1 cold 4bets to 950, V2 tanks for 1 minute and calls. Hero starts tanking for a good while...

Is folding an option?
- V1 is a nitty reg, but preflop he could see my 3bet on the button as an attempt to squeeze so he may ocasionally 4bet me light (there is some levelling here).
- V2 flat calling scares me a lot. Im not sure he is calling 1/3 of his stack here with less than QQ+ since he knows V1 is a very nitty player. Although he might also sense that V1 is trying to make a squeeze over my squeeze

Hero finally calls

Flop (2960): 7d8c2h
V1 instantly goes all in for 2050. V2 tanks for 10 seconds and calls

Hero?

id fold bc of v2. if player descripitions are correct you're dead here. i dont think theres many scenarios calling vs this action post is going to outperform jamming pre (that doesnt mean u should jam here)

tbh have a hard time seeing v2 have anything but aa

Honestly, given your descriptions, I think you'll have a much better answer if you ask a solver ... if playing 5/10/25 I assume you can afford to buy one or two.

From what I know of solver land, I assume it isn't folding KK pre. and would call vs. one player on the flop ... but upto you to decide if your V's are going to have a bunch of the hands robots Vs will have here.


From non-solver land if you are hoping for V1 to be making a move light and V2 to also think V1 is making a move light and so _also_ be doing something light ... whenever I've gone down a twisty path like that V2 always had it when I was correct that V1 was light (most memorably: once was with a 99% read on V1, which was right, and V2 was a WSOP ME winner who would have had to check the nuts twice for my third nuts to be bad -- but it was, people just mostly aren't robots).
Maybe V2 having it here is QQ+, because you aren't that deep. Any reads on how much everyone cares about 3k?
But V2 can't ever have bluffs, so that isn't great.

Dropping some hopium ranges into PPT:

H KK
V1 Ax5x,Ax4x,AxKx,AxQx,JJ+
V2 QQ+,AxKx

...has you flipping with V2, and that assumes V2 AsKs is calling and V1 only bluffs with A blockers.

Super weird spot, but I think you need to shove or fold pre-flop.

Now that we are here.. i guess i am finding a fold given descriptions of villains. But even without the super nitty reads this smells pretty strange, i might talk myself into a call. Taking my time in the tank here.

If we think V1 is light, maybe just call it off. Don't think either villain will range Hero on KK so might change their lines postflop as well.

You are underrepped calling the 4bet instead of jamming. I would not be able to find a fold. There is 7k in the pot and its 2k to call.

The fact that you up against 2 villains decreases the odds of both of them are going in light to near zero. The last time I was in this situation pf, both villains had AA.

That's a lot of money for me but I would find a call.
Unlikely V2 has AA or why didn't he jam after the PF 4bet to keep you out? Does he really prefer facing 2 opponents instead of 1?
Both villains know you don't have AA or why didn't you jam after the 4 bet?
So V1 knows he is the only one likely to have AA and he knows you both know that. I think he has a hand (and it could be AA) but it could also be a lot less.
V2 definitely has a hand but it not being AA and equally unlikely he was set mining with 88 after the 4 bet, his most likely holding is QQ, maybe JJ and possibly the other 2 kings.

I feel like calling pre is the worst of the options. And folding vs ripping is entirely player dependent. With descriptions I'd say its a fold.

Preflop is either shove, about 99% of the times, or fold. Calling does not accomplish anything.
As for me, I would fold only if V2 was an absolute nit.

As played, flop is whatever.
It is quite likely that one of the Vs has AA, but with such odds a call cannot be that wrong imo.

This Is how the hand ended:

v1 not really as good as advertised. pre way too loose when opener is originally utg (has reverse blockers and way too wide into uncapped / tight ranges), but post is an absolute disaster compared to any other option. like ok shoving is obviously going to be +ev but take a look at the action. if he shoves and guy in the middle calls, unless third guy is whale he really can't call unless OESD / 2p / set, whereas if he chooses a smaller size or checks, he gets more action.

i still think v2's range pre is entirely AA if he is reasonable / good (despite this range not supposed to be existing at all). with hands like QQ / KK / AK it makes more sense to jam and not flat / trap. i think calling this off post vs someone tagged as good (with the given stacks) is torching esp when both villains put it in.

is good fold though as played

Actually he is a really good player. He is almost a nit bot that plays every day. He literally plays from open to close every single game and every day. My guess is that this time he was trying to exploit my "squeeze" but he managed to catch a set on the flop. But the flop jam is awful, you guys are right about that. He might get more value by checking or betting small

that would be more applicable if the open came from a looser position. you just cant run someone over playing 12% of hands, and button is supposed to have like ~4% so even if you're twice as loose as you're supposed to be there's no way hes going to get enough folds, esp when he has negative blockers for it

people can be great players and not understand nuance of a situation / have looked at it or just spew for whatever reason. the flop shove though was mostly why i said that. i think thats indefensibly bad compared to other options

Well, I read the results and it's hard for me to objectively comment. Maybe give it 24 hours next time? Flop seems like very slightly a fold.

In solver land I think we are at a mix of call or fold pre and actually it leans more towards fold.

Personally I probably jam this pre most of the time because I tend not to assume V2 is going to trap AA a ton here and I think he will overcall hands like QQ and JJ which likely should be folds at very high frequency. I also don't know that v1 is going to mainly be folding QQ preflop as a solver would suggest he should. But maybe your history says otherwise.

I do think our in position 3bet is too large. 5x in position with one cold caller seems a bit much. 4-4.5x seems more reasonable.

If anything, I think the hand is good information for the future. V1 seems like he might be a bit more loose than you thought at first. I have seen pros that can cold 4 very light as well, although sometimes it is pretty baffling.

V2 is more likely to be playing a theoretically sound preflop game here.

Although 1 hand isn't enough to build a player profile, I would definitely think of this hand every time I play vs these players.

You got a very good flop for KK and you're still not sure of what to do. You can definitely get away in that spot. Given the post size, how little they both had left, you're better off jamming of folding pre-flop.

That Is excelent feedback. And I play these guys regularly so those reads might be good, specially v1 who has a very nitty image but can find spots to make squeezes really light

What would V2's reasoning be for not 5 bet jamming pre? Just mixing things up?

90% of the responses here want to shove KK as BTN.

If he has the read on V1 that he'll 4bet light too much (esp. this type of hand) and keep firing sometimes, it's much better to call AA and shove AKs or even AQs.

i mean the answer is keep the rec on the button in the hand while still being committed on every flop

the only alternative option is the best midstakes player in the room who studies often doesn't understand this somewhat basic preflop spot

i get that this is blunt but im pretty sure if this is reg vs reg vs reg with these stacks, this call massive cold 4b range doesn't exist for him. stacks are somewhat leveraged against him because hes deeper with the squeezer then the 4bettor, but given the open size and the 3b size this isn't going to look much different from a 100bb solution facing a (perhaps too) large 4b where it should just get simplified to jam or fold pre. also most of the MDF onus is going to be on the 3bettor as opposed to the opener so it doesn't really matter as much for him