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Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Easy to fold QQ here in <img /???

02-02-2016 , 03:38 PM
I have had this situation come up a few times where I feel my hand is beat, yet the board looks great for my hand. It is not common, however i think they are important to play correctly due to size of bet/stack.

Table Reads:

Seat1: Tight asian man $150.
Seat2: Very Loose player Pre $200. But I have little info on him. He checked back a made flush in Position, to make a small value bet on river against my 2pair. Seems crafty?
Seat3: Japanese player $120. weak-tight. Seems hand strength aware, but not experienced in the game.
Seat4: TAG reg $150. Pretty competent at beating Fish but always puts me on AKQ. I have a poor image in front of him at this moment.
Seat5: asian kid $100. Not good player, limps hands like A9, KT, TJ, QJ n calls raises with them. Doesn't bluff much. so Weak passive abc?
Seat6: empty
Seat7: Loose pre reg women Stack $200+. She is very careful in Pots, however sometimes makes bad call downs when relative hand strength is beat. And bets her hand straight forwardly & aggressively. I would consider her mostly ABC - but not tight pre. Shes already had a big roller coaster night.
Seat8: Hero with QQ - Stack $300 my particular image changes per player. For this hand...my image is of a competent poker player. However, I started picking up momentum at this point after being card dead during a spell of loose aggressive action from a donkey (who I had now busted & he left).
Seat9: My Friend a aggressive NIT. No comment.

Seat5 open limps UTG. this is hardly ever a monster.
Seat7 open limps which is very common for her.
Seat8 Hero: I have QQ and make a large raise to $20 since I have been mostly folding. I had show down KK earlier to bust out a loose call station. But otherwise, hadn't done much play. I raise $20 because i have plenty of history with other players who know my hand is not JJ+ here. I had plenty of conversations with seat7, so I had mistakenly taken it easy on her here to give her an easy fold. Also, I am expecting action from seat2 and possibly seat5.

folds around to BTN, seat2: and he thinks about it and releases.
folds back to seat7: and she askes me, will I check it down. I deviate from my usual no answer response and tell her friendly 'no comment'. she calls anyway.

Flop comes 8d2s3s ...pot ($40 after rake)

She checks. I C-bet $30. She grabs chips to call pretty quickly, however she grabs more than $30....which indicates to me that she wanted to raise, however cut them back because she made a mistake and doesn't want to bring attention to her for a raise.

Turn comes 4offsuit. pot ($100).

I am mulling a check back at this point due to the high% of small cards that hit a set here. however, she cuts out $75 and leads into me strongly.

I consider her hand range and my history with her and just watching her...and this is never a bluff. I have seen her do the exact same play with the exact same hand conversation with 77....on a 722 board.

After the $75 she has roughly under $100 in her stack.
Physical read, she was pretty silent n quite the whole hand. Her chest breathes heavily after betting her $75.

Should this always be an easy lay down?
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-02-2016 , 04:25 PM
Go with your read and fold. At 1-2, I have seen this exact move that you describe countless times where a V grabs chips to raise and then just calls. Its always a nutted hand. This, combined with her bombing into you on the turn, I can find a fold pretty easily here.
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-02-2016 , 04:31 PM
Fold, she either has a set or made top 2 on turn. Check call flop, lead turn with this kind of V is always a big hand. When passive players start playing aggressively in the middle of a hand..........
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-02-2016 , 04:48 PM
3/4pot lead is a large bet. Would she do this with 99-JJ? I doubt it. This is a disgusting spot, but hey, you're the one with the reads. Trust your gut and fold. Certainly not an EASY lay down by any means.

I have an issue with: "I am mulling a check back at this point due to the high% of small cards that hit a set here." This sounds like results-oriented thinking. Are you doing the math? If she hit a set with 88, 22, 44, 33 she also has 55, 66, 77, 99, TT, JJ in her range. If she checks turn you should almost certainly be betting, she has far more combos of non-set pairs.
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-02-2016 , 05:03 PM
on the surface it appears like a difficult fold and even a snap call, but given player profiling it is an easy fold.

As winning poker players, we have the acquired wisdom of thousands of hours of experience not to mention the insights and observations from other winning players on 2 +2.

There are some player types that never make big bets without nutted hands. This V description fits that profile. In order to call here, we need to see this type of V make shoves with worse hands a decent percentage of the time for the call to be +EV.

Winning players can tell you that this type of opponent is never donk shoving with worse hands nearly enough to make calling worth the investment. This, combined with other "obvious" tells like wanting to raise but just calling on the flop makes this hand super easy to play.
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-02-2016 , 05:20 PM
How about her "Check it down" comment. some might say that it indicates a Middling hand....i.e 66-99. because you would think 22-55 hands are easy set mines for her.
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-02-2016 , 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruewheel
This sounds like results-oriented thinking. Are you doing the math? If she hit a set with 88, 22, 44, 33 she also has 55, 66, 77, 99, TT, JJ in her range. If she checks turn you should almost certainly be betting, she has far more combos of non-set pairs.
I think with TT/JJ i think she raises preflop a lot. especially JJ.
So 22-99, thats 50% and the line she is taking is of super strength too. So If I check back, I may

- get more info
- pot size control
- have a chance at getting her hand to call 1 more time due to my turn check back

She will limp fold easily to a big preflop raises - so her call range here has to be pretty narrow. I'm not a stranger to her though....
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-02-2016 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamdani82
I think with TT/JJ i think she raises preflop a lot. especially JJ.
So 22-99, thats 50% and the line she is taking is of super strength too. So If I check back, I may

- get more info
- pot size control
- have a chance at getting her hand to call 1 more time due to my turn check back

She will limp fold easily to a big preflop raises - so her call range here has to be pretty narrow. I'm not a stranger to her though....
I'm fine with most of that (though, why are we trying to pot control with an overpair?) However, once we get to the flop, we need to count combos to see how many times she has a set.

There are 6 combos each of 55,66,77,99 = 24. Only 3 combos each of 22,33,44,88 = 12. She only has a set 33% of the time. Not saying she doesn't have a set, I think her raise pump-fake and turn lead clearly indicate it.
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-02-2016 , 09:51 PM
I would not check back turn.

As played, get away from the hand; players at these stakes do not think outside the box much. It's reasonable to believe she sometimes has has the suited ace or TPTK. But do you really want to stack off on that basis? You never have fold equity here; just get away from it and move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeGrosB
When passive players start playing aggressively in the middle of a hand..........
^ Again with the misunderstanding of what it means to be passive and what it means to be aggressive. Players who bet unusually often are likely aggressive, but just betting, or betting large amounts, is not indicative of an aggressive style. Aggressive players are manipulative; they try to create profitable situations. Almost all players are passive, for the most part, because aggressive poker is difficult; it requires great skill. durrrr is aggressive, as are Texas Dolly and Vanessa Selbst, but the vast majority of players are significantly more passive than they.

Last edited by BadlyBeaten; 02-02-2016 at 10:08 PM.
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-02-2016 , 10:28 PM
If you've been nice with her and your scared just after the flop vet agree to check down , I've done it before and they almost always agree.
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote
02-03-2016 , 05:03 PM
I was going with mostly with my read. And also, if I were to barrel turn, I'd need her to be on a pretty big Flush draw for her to call, or for her to think that I'm bluffing. All of which are possible. But the Flush draw is just very unlikely.

Btw, if I check back turn - she may call a river bet if she happens to be weak.
and she could also turn her missed draw into a bluff.

all of these are unlikely scenarios, as my read (which I posted), lead me to think she was very strong.
Easy to fold QQ here in <img /??? Quote

      
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