Okay, fair enough. Thank you for the positive response.

I do agree that FPS is bad.

But, I will say that suffering though a self-inflicted period of FPS can make us better in that we should learn from our mistakes. That's not to say that playing FPS +EV. It is -EV.

But we still learn from our mistakes. Hopefully we learn the correct response, rather than developing some bias.

Sometimes poker player develop a negative bias -- a tendency to pay more attention and give more weight to negative than positive experiences.

This, for example, is why, IME, some people stop raising PF with JJ and AK. They remember more the times they miss the flop with AK. Or they remember more the times an over-card comes when they have JJ. This negative bias leads them to weak play -- they stop putting money into the put until they get a "safe" flop.

The same can be true of FPS. When we, as learners, attempt a FPS line that fails, we can sometimes develop a negative bias, where we swear off bluffing, when we should only swear off FPS.

I'm not suggesting anyone here has this type of negative bias. I'm just bring up the point.

i dont know if im still on the right track or not, but i kinda think ur drifting into the area of "feel" which combines on paper strategy/math + "stars lining up as i was talking about + that little extra gut feeling that tells you the time is just right. I believe its affectionately called "blink" and combines a plethora of subconscious things that we as humans decipher unknowingly and thus come up with gut feelings.

If i had to guess though, "deliberate practice" might be a better place to start when it comes to forcing the upward rise in skill. Its much harder to design as well as test "outside the box" lines etc live since the pace is so slow and the villains change faces each day. if we had a HUD, it would be ok. Lol.


Anyhow, interesting that you bring this subject up since as a generality take this forum. Mostly the discussion is how to handle the hand AT THIS LIMIT. And I for one have been chastised for discussing the reply in terms of higher levels of thoughts etc. (which to me is necessary to expand the thinking and move up). Just a thought.

I know I got hell for posting a Q6s post. Dudes all said fold pre. I got the needle for that thread.

this thread is too much of a soft target for me too resist further trolling.

I think ANL touched on this point>>>, but allow me to elucidate.
one thing about our image, that sometimes we fail to take into account, is that
we may be getting viewed as a 'good' player.
ANL said something about how he can't believe he gets paid off sometimes.
I go through the same thing,
I think i'm playing my hand face up, and think it's obv that i'm a nit,
and lo, and behold, they stick it in vs. me w/ a very marginal hand. (bottom pair...)
I'm puzzled, because i think my image is tight that session.
sometimes, they just call you because they know you are a good player;
they think you are capable of whatever. they love to suspect good players, and play table sheriff.

think about it PA, you are most likely the best player at your tables.
you think that they don't pick up on that?

personally, i'd prefer it if they viewed me as a major donk sometimes.

but, whatever your image is, it's your job to know what that image is w/ every Villian at the moment.

+1 and i might add, what they plan to do about our image. Fight us, or defer to us. This is the type stuff where battles are won in the minds of the generals before the first trigger was pulled.

Your image? Surely you jest. You don't have an image because DRs don't know they're DRs. They only see regs, who they identify as people who act the way they do at the table (never mind, you know, little things like how you actually play), and fish, which is everybody else, including you. It's the damnedest thing. They let you know just where they're at -- look for the three dudes in ball caps with ipods asking each other 'you put him on aces too, right?' after making the patented DR big laydown -- and are totally incapable of making you for anything but a drooler if you don't look and act like them. If you sit there long enough, he'll try to put some absurd move on you so all you really need to do is be able to identify obvious instances of FPS and he'll dump his stack on you. This is where the extraordinary profit from DRs comes. They don't exhibit any single huge fish tendency; they call just a little too wide pre, lay down just a little too easy post, and stack off just a little too light. There's no huge exploit there, you just play better and the little leaks will bleed him out. Where you really make your money is from the DR's binary perception of players as either Like Me or Other and his resulting tendency to play the sharks the same as the fish.

I agree, and I added the caveat that image is overratted several times so far ITT;
yet, you cannot disregard it, or bad things start to happen, i've found.

also, it's a proactive thing.
you have to work at it to create an image that is profitable.
you have to use your creativity.
Of course, you will profit from DRs if you are a GR on autopilot., thats a given,
even w/out creating a image that increases your profitability;
but because you can't multi-table live, I feel like you have to rachet it up as far as you possibly can, because i can't afford to settle for slight edges.

another thing this discussion made me think of is the importance of
knowing your opponenets motivations,
as in, WHY do the play poker??
you have to get in there and chat it up, and be personable, and
you will begin observing their motivations if you pay enuf attention.
some ppl are trying to improve, some are there to just gamble, some to get away from the wife, some to double up and leave, there are a ton of different reasons, and you can't assume anyones motivation is anything like yours.

this led me to wonder if this source of info on Villians is that easy to get online.
I'm not sure if OL players even think about it??
Do they just assume everyone is trying to be the next jungleman??
it's prob not that bad as assumption when u look at these OL games.

It isn't that hard to judge on-line. You do have to use some inferences. If you've been playing at a level for a while, any noob you see, especially on the weekend is most likely a casual player. That gets confirmed by what their VPIP and PFR look like and whether they have selected auto-top off or not.

I'm sure you know the consequences of playing the wrong guy for a dummy. We've all been there. While the edges from your game just being better than the DR's may be slight, the edge from his tendency to make huge, predictable mistakes is anything but.

In terms of image, I think when sitting down at a table with several DR types it's better to sit and fold for a few orbits than to play maniac. Either approach can create opportunities but the former does so more cheaply. DRs tend to pigeonhole non-DRs as either loose or weak/tight and play them accordingly far more quickly than the sample size warrants. Sometimes you can get them floating you out of position just by catching a brief run of trash to start.

One of the better spots is when the DR floats you in position and the turn bricks. He'll call an open-shove too much because he makes it for a fish-taking-an-ill-advised-stand line and fold to a checkraise too much because the books all tell him to be on the lookout for it as a signal to let the hand go when it comes from the scared money he thinks you are.

problem is,
some casual players are motivated to actually try to play well,
or play at least what they think is 'good poker', whatever that is.
others are just motivated by the thrill of gambling.
knowing who is who is crucial if you're going to make a move.
a gambling player will call you, even when all the stars line up on your bluff;
you get the perfect scare card, board texture, you know V is at the bottom of his range, everything.
why does he call?
hes calling because it's a thrill to gamble on catching you bluffing.
If he views you as a good player, even more so.
It's almost like theres a bounty out on you or something.
theres value for them in beating you, not for your $,
but for the experience, apparantly.

as far as HUDS, I don't see how stats are going to tell you who a person IS.
aggro-fish, and sick, dangerous LAGS can have the exact same stats,
yet be like night and day, as far as how you have to play them.

I think everyone is different, as far as what works for them.
you don't have to BE a maniac, to make your opponents wonder
what is going on w/ your play.
somehow, I find a way to come off as the biggest maniac, while actually being he most solid player at the table.
they don't see me open fold KJ/AT UTG,
but they DO see me raise 42off in the CO.
*profit*

Its called you being a solid poker player. Shidd I hate playin up front, I want to play from LP. Poker is about selective aggression.

You're talking about fooling players less adept than even the most expansive definition of DRs would include. You can't sell an actual DR on a maniac image like this. They know this stuff. They do this stuff. Demonstrating positional awareness is counterproductive. The last thing you want is the DR's respect.

Most of the aggression is an illusion to live players since if one of us chk ships A8ss on a 9s 7d 6s flop and happen to get called (and win) then it looks like we were spew shovvy to many viewing the hand. THEY never ever imagine in life doing something this blatant with their entire stack and so we are looked at as dangerous, spewtastic, uncontrollable, bullyish and so on.

Its the biggest difference in the world to have the table deferring to you, rather than them having thoughts of flatting IP and outplaying you at the start of a hand. ive said it before, training the table as a whole to fly straight against you is of primary importance. If done correctly, then all the rest becomes easy.

Its another reason that i have said that upon entering the cardroom, its liek we are an actor arriving at the set. We have a job to do each day, which is training our new group of monkees to ring the bell for a morsel of food so to speak. Just playing the cards is fairly boring IMO.

I guess I just disagree with this as pertains to the DRs. I want them to get ideas. Yes, all else being equal you'd rather not get flatted out of position, but when it happens, you know you got flatted out of position and how to proceed accordingly. When you know what his lines and counter-adjustments are going to be, giving the DR the button is just mistake-swapping. Against the droolers you want to be in charge because they can't be reasonably relied upon to make their big mistakes in predictable spots like DRs can.

alpha monkeys are gonna be alpha monkeys.

it works on DRs even better than the droolers, IMO.
droolers don't even know they're overmatched.

i've gotten action like this recently from the DRs in my game:
raise 34s IP. DR calls in BB. flop Q24.
I c-bet, get floated. turn 6. check,check
river Q, he bets pot, I call with bottom pair, my kicker does'nt even play. he has A8off, no pair, no draw.

or.... I raise AQ IP, DR calls OOP. flop Q56. I c-bet. DR check-raise ships @70 big bliinds cuz he puts me on missed AK?

sorry, a drooler is NEVER giving me this kinda action.

I'll go so far as to say that this kinda dynamic is dampered in OL poker, because of our physical bodies.
our bodies/brains are wired to engage in a vetting process when we are in a group w/ other monkeys, to determine who are the dominant ones, and where on the totem pole everyone is.
when your opponenet is on another contienent,
your body is'nt too concerned about it.

it's just 10s of thousands of years or more of genetic programming.

I guess you would have to be specific on a given situation for me to buy this. Personally i would MUCH rather i have DR who are afraid to make postflop moves IP for the fear that i will simply come over the top of them. In this manner when they do play hard, they are easier to read. If you do well OOP vs good thinking players who decide they can make "reasonable" floats and semi bluff raises vs us, then you are quite the player. I will maintain that i rather keep them in check, playing me in a SF manner, and thus i know accurately what i can do and what i cannot vs them.

Note: If they are making "dumb" moves vs our range, then they do not qualify as DR. many times if you find that you have a VERY good reg behind you (at say 5/10) then the only really great move is to change seats. And yet, you are making a case for inviting this type of adversary when OOP. I cant go along with that at all. Position is a tremendous equalizer. So if it happens that i have a DR to my left, i will do what i can to force them to play me in a SF manner. We dont get enough hands at live poker to sit and wait for a great trap vs a tough player who will force the action. What will happen on a regular basis is that we have air or a medium strength hand OOP vs a tuff player who IF is not trained to play us SF, will give us a ton of problems postflop IMO. Thinking otherwise is just ego in my assessment.

from the epic thread.

Unpredictable/agg image is not always the best thing vs calling stations/LLSNL.

In 5/10+ it means a lot more. Since its more mental on the higher levels.

true.

but we're talking about dealing w/ DRs, which i geuss should'nt come up that often at LLS (2/5, 1/2...).
maybe the player pool where i'm at is super weak for 2/5,
I usually have 1 or 2 decent players at my table at the most at any given time.
I think i've run into maybe 2 players who were tough, as in, I'd prefer them not at my table, in the last 3 months. they were most likely waiting for 5/10.
If I find a table where there is'nt one even competant player, i'm happy; but, you're right. you have to dial back the aggression vs. stations. maybe theres more value in building an image vs. DRs, cuz they will be around for a while.
who cares if a drooler remembers you winning that pot w/ 34s, if they are busto in a month or two.
your odd play does'nt register, anyways,.

No, they generally don't. It goes a little deeper than VPIP/PFR/AG.

Read the COTW on LAG play by Split to see the difference.

I totally agree with venice,its more to it then that, Position is the key to LAG play.

Sure. I mean, I think the whole distinction is between the good thinking players and the ones who are mathematically sound but uncreative save for when they're leveling themselves to death. The two examples the other guy gave seem to me to go more to DR tendencies than position. First line is a bare ace or maybe 33 roughly always against this player. Second one is just spewy. The 'putting you on AK' business, really?

Certainly nobody does well out of position against the tough 5/10 reg you describe, but I think that's an entirely different dude.

check out episode 107 of deuceplays w/ Nan Ying.
guy is a super-nerd, but seems to know what he's talking about.
he tells ppl to turn the damn things off, if you want to improve your game.

I was under the impression that the better OL players don't go crazy w/ HUDs, or they don't even use them at all. I know at the higher levels, it's all regs, so everyone knows who is who, but i'm not talking about that.
it's a tool, but it gets WAY abused, and used as a crutch.
the main thing is observing your opponents actual play.
a HUD just simply cannot tell you specifically how they play, what their specific weaknesses are, let alone what what motivates them.
It cannot tell you what lines will exploit the hell out of them,
or exactly what mistakes they are capable of making.

a HUD just puts you on autopilot, and lulls you into thinking that you don't have to bother observing anyones actual play. It can be more destructive than helpful, and it certainly promotes complacency.

it's great if you are playing 20 tables, and are trying to squeak out a microscopic edge on each one.
HUDs are not even intended to give you significant edges,
only tiny ones.




the classic one is when a student thinks he will be playing just like his coach if he just copies his stats.

"I have the same stats, but i'm losing, what's going on here?" LOL.

I have really been liking this thread so far and been hesitant to contribute since most people posting on here are probably better players than I am and I want to do more listening than talking.

But this thread got me thinking about the people where I play who I consider to be DRs and GRs, so I want to talk about what I consider to be the difference between the two.

Where I play (for perspective, I play 1/2), I see DRs just about every time I go, and there's at least one at at least half the tables. But there are only 3 people I've seen all year who I think are GRs. Two of them are really only semi-regs as they're not there often, so I want to talk about the one GR who I play with the most often, as compared to the DRs who, as a group, I play with often.

The DRs are usually the ones who I see "making moves" preflop and on the flop. The DRs will play their draws much more aggressively than fish will (as they should), they will play back at people who they think are weak...basically what you'd expect. They can be unpredictable preflop and on the flop.

But over time I have come to notice two things about the DRs, that don't apply to the GR:

1) The DRs try to "outplay" everyone at the table, as they define it. (I'll contrast this with the GR in a second.) As a corollary, they tend to play the same style against everyone at the table with only minor variations to adjust to their specific opponent.

2) The DRs make--at least in my opinion--fairly big mistakes on the turn and river when they are strong. They don't bet enough against people who would have paid off more. They don't plan to play for stacks often enough, especially when they are deep-stacked and it won't just happen automatically like it would with 100bb's.

These two traits tie together the people I play with who I think are the DRs. But the GR does not do either of these things.

I have watched the GR play quite a bit (in the hopes that I could learn how he gets his massive walls of chips), and I think that this guy has a lot of leaks in his game. If I just watched him play against the DRs, I would not understand how he did it! But he does three things that easily compensate, and then some, for all of his leaks:

1) He is extremely patient.

2) He is extremely good at picking out his targets at the table. If someone he has pegged as a decent player shows interest in the pot, he's much less likely to contest it. He tries to maximize his opportunities to take advantage of his targets, not the other players. One corollary is that he tightens up a lot against the DRs at the table.

3) Once he gets into a spot he wants, he is extremely good at exploiting the fish. He is so much better at attacking them than the DRs are. If he's confident he has the best of it and a big pot is brewing, he makes sure he gets all of the stacks in by the river with his bet sizing.

Basically, from my time playing with this guy, I get the impression that he is not trying to outplay both the fish and the DRs; he is trying to race the DRs for the fishes' money. This is a race that he almost always wins, and once he gets the money in his stack, good luck if you are a DR trying to get it from him!

I find this to be in sharp contrast with the original premise of this thread--that the GRs are GRs because they just pick spots to make big bluffs. Maybe this is just because I play 1/2 while you guys play higher stakes, and maybe this guy who I consider a GR would not survive if he moved up. But I know I've never seen him make a big river bet that didn't get called, and I know he consistently cashes out a lot more than most of the people I play with.