LAGgy Hero raises button to $15 after four limpers with 89. Hero is playing well (to his mind) and annoying people by raising (helpful to get afternoon action). Folded around to MP prissyish nit who calls. Villain has been playing an utterly nondescript joyless nitty game. Has $170, Hero covers.

Flop KT7 .

Villain donkbets $15 into $39. Hero calls.

Turn 4 . Same bet. Hero failcalls.

River K . Villain wtfchecks.

Hero?

lol I mean its looks like a pretty well hand IMO but I think you will only get him to fold complete air / misses draws. I guess firing like 65 may get it done but idk

When I see someone donk bet small into a pot that has a draw and has a high card that a fish puts the pf raiser on (you always have AK) it just screams that he is betting to set his price for the draw or has a monster

Same thing on the turn. Block bet or monster. Call is good.

River: Unless he is playing tricky and just filled up here, there is no way a decent sized bet can't push him off his QJhh. I would bet like 60 or something decent here and there is really no way he is looking you up with anything less than JJ/QQ, especially if he is a nit. And there is a decent chance you can have the same hand.

Can villain fold Kx? If no, give up. If yes, bet, although I'd probably consider raising flop or turn then rather than just calling him down to bluff river.

If your image is bluffy I'd just give the pot up.

Also $65 on the river is too much if your goal is to fold QJ, he'd fold that for a 1/3 of pot bet, IMO.

I raise this donk bet with this hand and dynamic like a boss. You rarely get 3bet, get folds, and buy a free turn.

Getting looked up quite often in river.

Although against a regular, I might use this opportunity to test his big bet calling limit.

I would have raised OTF, even against a nit. But as played, I think he is calling you down pretty light. Just check IMO.

I like this idea.

You're sure as hell not a LAG post flop, as Ikestoys points out. The problem with this hand is that he can be playing 7x the same way. Can he lay down 3rd pair against you? Have you been the table captain showing everyone how great you are by making people fold better hands you when have air?

Hard to judge based on your information, especially since your adjectives suggest that you are not particularly observant and are biased.

The hand is posted because it is atypical and I think interesting. If I can get to the river for $30 against top pair and get his stack with a straight it makes sense to do so. I agree he could be doing this with a T (not a 7), but players like this simply DO NOT bet/fold the same street. So it will take two barrels to pry him off an AT or TJ that got irritated and decided to take the lead. And barrels are expensive when he has top pair and has decided to make a stand after being a nonentity in the last forty-plus hands.

It's clear you're irritated by my description in other threads of being adaptable to different types of players, and developing a distinctive image for certain afternoon tables. This player was irritated with me as well, even though at the table I am unfailingly friendly and respectful. My idea is that such players pay me off because I raise so much. Why would I try to raise him off what is probably KJ when instead I can call along for a cheap river J and win his (admittedly not that great) stack?

What do you put him on when he checks the river?

Can he fold a T to a big turn raise? Yes, probably. But if he decides to call I'm nowhere unless my card comes. And when he's irritated he is apt to call, especially since he is clearly betting without a real plan (see results).

I don't think he will fold a T on the river, and it is not impossible he's alert enough to check and induce a bluff.

I'm enjoying experimenting playing aggressively and reading hands attentively, and, it's true, mostly building a reputation with wacky cheap preflop play and operating pretty ABC postflop. I don't see any value to your calling me out as a big jerk for it. You don't know me.

If it makes you feel any better, I switched gears this afternoon and nitted it up for three hours, playing six pots and winning four of them. Different kind of table.

Also if it makes you feel better I stuck with the plan despite his preposterous river check and gave up and checked the river and the irritated guy showed J9 and scooped. He was very pleased and surprised when I mucked.

Lets look at whether your line is +ev so far from preflop to turn.

(I am not a math kind of person so someone may want to help me in this aspect).

Preflop: you are raising a decent SC into 4 limpers. How likely will this bet be +ev? Hardly... Very often, you have to make use of ur fold equity to make raising this hand profitable. However, at this stake, esp when most ppl arent folding enough to preflop raises, you will see ppl calling down light at flop too.

As such, your preflop play has a negative expectation.

Flop: calling is ok. Not exactly a high +ev or -ev play if we just look at pot odds alone.

Turn call: definitely +ev based on pot odd n implied odds.

River????

Can you see now that you are in this tough situation becoz of ur preflop play? If u check river, u most likely lose n that is a result of your preflop play.

Your post flop play has been slightly +ev so far post flop wise but if u bet n get called, you simply aggravated ur bad situation n turn a slightly +ev play into a -ev one.

Just check back n give up river imo.

And imo, you are not a good lag because u are making decision without knowing the consequences of ur play or how to play in a way such that u can turn a -ev play into a positive one.

Please pardon my candidness but I meant well

Thanks, Noel. I've actually been doing pretty well with sizable cbets after raises like this, even in unfortunately large fields of four or five. More commonly it is heads up and I have position and can exert pressure using maybe 2/3s of all board textures. I go limp pretty quickly if I sense top pair. And it's fun to show down a pair of 8's against the occasional stubborn underpair, after two-barreling and checking the river on a T832K board.

I agree that donkbettors make this strategy tougher and might even make hand-reading so tough/expensive that the approach is -EV unless image and dynamics are just right. That's a big reason I posted the hand.

I'd make an lol tiny bet otr of 35-40.

If v is making blocker bets otf and ott with marginal hands, he's almost always doing so otr also.

So the check says to you that he missed a draw — what, 70% of the time? 60%? I admit I was perplexed as hell when he checked.

It's really terribad that he thought his $15 turn bet gave him any fold equity. It's like he was just making blocker bets so he could see if his draw came in, without caring whether I would have anything to call with if it did.

Just the combination of busted draws and all other sorts of crap that just bet bc they don't know what else to do makes a tiny bet otr a decent play bc you do have fold equity and zero sd value.

For all we know this opponent lead out tiny with 55s for no apparent reason other than that they're getting annoyed with you, and will now fold to any sized bet otr.

Results were above. Hero checked back river, Villain showed J9o and HHWG.

Question:

you make a tiny bet only if u put him on a draw n missed river. How often does he shiw up with a missed draw here? Otherwise, ur play will be -ev in the long run.

and if you put him on a draw, why dont u reraise him at flop or turn? We need to understand tt if we were to raise with SC preflop, we need to play it aggressively to make it profitable...

I feel like OP description of villain has no semblance to reality.

I don't know any nits that call raises OOP w J9o then donk bet weak two streets in a row on a gut shot...

As played, how are you not raising somewhere. Take your pick, flop or turn.

When we raise with SCs, a significant portion of our profits come from our ability to win post flop w aggression. Not just when villains chk to us and we cbet and they fold. We also need to win when they donk bet us or float us. If we are raising w SCs and only win when we hit gin, raising w those cards will be -EV.

Now am I saying we need to always be aggressive. No. Sometimes we need to fold or just draw. However, this isn't one of those times. We need to raise here on turn w a plan to fire again on 100% of all rivers.

Yeah... I agree with you to a large extent.I won't say that the OP must raise here though. It is too dependent on the type of villain.

However, the OP must be clear about what he is trying to achieve by calling vs raising donk bet.

1) he calls donk bets becoz he put villain on a made hand that won't fold to a reraise. This also gave him the implied odds when he hits. As such, betting river after calling two streets is a major contradiction in what he is doing.

2) he will reraise if he feels that the donk bet is setting low price for a draw. Calling is therefore bad becoz the implied odds of hitting draws diminished.

Another way we can look at the OP line is from the point of view of the villain.

Villain will see that the OP raises limpers preflop, only call flop donk bet on a K hugh board, only call a ticklish small turn bet n then bet very small on river?

This line is totally trashy n makes no sense in whatever the OP is trying to do (assuming he bets small at river). If I am the villain, I am going to call OP down very lightly becoz his line don't make sense to me!

i was just speaking about the option of betting otr.

i do think a raise otf is necessary if you are going to raise pre with scs ip. especially against an opponent like op describes.

This flop hits a Nit's limp-call range pretty hard.

On the other hand this is not a board that from Villain's perspective is draw-heavy (in other words there is no flush draw, no connected middle or small cards).

Considering he is expecting a C-bet from you, and this board being more on the dry side, this is probably a Kx trying find out where its at.

Make a big raise of the flop bet and follow through on the turn on all non-Broadway cards (they will likely give him a straight draw to go with the K, hence he is not going to fold, and will proceed to get stubborn).

You have a lot of equity to begin with, so unless the guy is a total calling station (in which case your read of him being a nit is wrong btw) this line should be +EV.