I normally play a very tight/aggressive style. Once in a while, someone will call me "the guy that plays one hand an hour" and not give me much action. More often than not though, they do give me action. I can fold for an hour, raise to $15 and get 4 callers.

Tonight, I experienced life on the other side of the fence. I played an ultra-LAG game for a couple of hours. I was expecting Vs to dramatically change how they played against me, but they didn't.

For 2 hours, my pfr was probably 60. I got caught triple barrel bluffing. I was bluff-raising turns. Luckily, I hit a few hands, so my stack was even when this hand occured:

V- 60 y/o white REC player. Loose passive pre-flop. He wasn't shy about putting chips in post flop. He called several large bets with losing hands against other players. He made a few big bets and won pots. He's playing pretty straightforward overall. When he has a hand, he bets it. I don't think he's bluffed even once. Hero has bluffed V out of 2 or 3 pots and each time V has said "nice bet" as he tank folded.

Hero - Super LAG image. I would probably bum hunt myself all over town if I saw someone playing like I was playing. Image is wreckless and crazy.

$1/2
~$240 effective stacks (hero covers)

Irrelevant V raises to $10 UTG + 1
Hero 3 bets to $35 with AK
V cold calls on the button
Irrelevant V folds

Flop $80
K74
Hero bets $60
V Calls

Turn $200
2
Hero puts V all-in for ~$145
V tanks and folds K8 face up

WTF!?! How is anyone ever sticking $100 in the pot vs. a crazy LAG with top pair and then folding to a 3/4 pot sized shove?

My question is this:

Does Hero's image even matter to REC players?

In my opinion image to a rec strictly depends on your stack size at a capped game, meaning whether you're losing or winning not the style you're playing, most recs are call to improve post and will never call down light for big money unless they are the "mega stations".
Bart Hanson talks about image in one of his pods, where he says that at a capped game when you're sitting deeper than the max BI is way more visible to a rec and most will tend to stay out of your way because they think you're running hot or whatever(don't remember exactly what he says) and your bets will get more respect( bluffs/value) thus winning or losing image is much more important than lag, tag etc etc..

Image matters to an extent. IMO the majority of LLSNL fail to adjust properly to their villians' image and tendencies. Hence many non-thinking opponents have inelastic styles. A nit is going to stay a nit, a station is a station, etc. Like the law of motion where objects tend to stay in their same motion until an opposite force puts them off track, our opponents will continue down the same path unless an event causes them to deviate off their chosen path.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using 2+2 Forums

It depends. I think the bigger issue is players not understanding relative bet sizing. In his mind $145 is a lot of money, irrespective of stack and pot sizes. Had you gone 70 turn and 75 otr I think he would have looked you up.

The LAG image is what got your 3-bet called in the first place. Were you 3-betting much throughout the session? If this was one of very few 3-bets and you're getting looked up with K8s, that's fantastic and is probably the result of your aggressive image.

I don't know why you're focusing on image here.

It seems like bet-sizing and hand-reading are what's relevant.

Both you and Villain can see that it's unlikely someone is on a draw.

You have 3 streets to get money in and shoved the turn on a draw-less board.

He kept 60% of his stack by folding the worse hand.

Are all rec players the same?

Well said, I fully agree. Basically it's the other side of the coin to the old $15 bet in to a $100 pot. Of course this is strictly the rec players because even mediocre regs understand this simple concept.

Bet smaller on turn shove river

this, classifying a group of players as one is a lazy way to play the game

also bet $50 ott

Your sizing is really bad. You went from $60 to $145 which shows great strength. A random player is likely to view this as you think you have the best hand but are scared now that there is a potential flush draw out there as well as a potential straight draw. The fact that you have the flush draw should make you feel super comfortable slow playing a bit here so I would bet $60 to $70 again on the turn making it difficult for villain to fold and then shove all rivers. Opponents often don't plan ahead to the next street so after they call the turn they will realize they can't fold river.

Image does matter, but not in the way you think it does.

As it's been pointed out earlier, we on this forum tend to look at a player's image as tight or loose, and then we adjust accordingly based on ranges. Rec-fish tend to look at your image entirely differently.

Some rec-fish will factor in whether you have been winning or losing most recently. If they see you winning a bunch of hands they will tend to stay out of your way, especially if you've won a big pot lately. For example, you say that you are playing super-LAG and have been caught triple barrel bluffing, but that you have been getting lucky and hitting hands which is why you're not stuck. A lot of times, rec-fish will focus on the second part of that description more than the first part. When a fish thinks you are on a hot streak they will play against you as if you have it.

Other rec-fish will at least look at whether you have been playing aggressively. It's something that stands out to them because they usually don't. However, they will very rarely change their play depending on whether you've been showing up with the goods or not. They'll just classify you as an "action player" and start calling all your raises because raising is just what you do.

I look at this hand differently from you. You're talking about how dumb it is that your fish got himself what you consider to be pot-committed and then folded. I look at it the other way: he cold-called your 3bet with K8s and then called a flop bet after flopping top pair with a kicker that cannot be good if you have a real hand. Then he made a correct fold on the turn (probably because you have a winning image). The fish gave you $95 when a better player would have given you nothing.

Having a wild image vs recs doesn't mean they are playing for stacks with TPNK and worse.

As thinking players I think we tend to level ourselves when it comes to image.

The thinking goes, "Well, I did X two orbits ago when I had Z, then later I did Y on the turn and river when I had Q, therefore, if I do Y on the turn and then Y on the river here, villain will have to think that I am super strong and he will have to fold..."

No. Not even remotely close.

Fish are gonna fish. Nits are gonna nit. Stations are gonna station. Aggros are gonna aggro.

Vernon more or less nailed it, fish think about the game differently. In most cases they are level 1 or what I call quasi level 2 (like level 1.5). 90% of them just play their cards and have inelastic styles.

Now, they may "slightly" adjust to your image but not in the way that you think.

To often thinking players think "Okay, I've been splashing around raising a lot so they will adjust by 3-betting me light or bluff raising me..."

no. Not even remotely close.

They will adjust by just widening their calling range but they will still c/f when they whiff. Or, they may adjust by limp/re-raising you with their monsters. Or they may just slow play their monsters and wait for the good ol check/raise shove on the river.

That is how they typically adjust.

And on the flip side, if we are nitty, they still can't fold to us.

Saw a HILARIOUS hand the other day. Old Asian woman had been at the table for 2 hours. She had raised (each raise was a 3-bet ) a total of 3 times in 2 hours and every single time she raised, she had AA or KK and each of those 3 times she stacked her villain. So, she is sitting pretty at $2.5k. Her VPIP is like 5%, she flopped a few sets and basically has shown nothing but the nuts whenever she has raised.

A semi-thinking rec-fish player was at the table on her right and he witnessed this and was even talking to me about how nitty she was. He has $500 in front of him and is in the big blind. She raises UTG to $35, action gets back to him and he 3-bets her with QQ to $125, she then 4-bets him to $250.... He tanks and tanks and tanks and then shoves all-in for $500 and she snap calls him.

He says, "You got AA again?"
She says, "yeah"
board runs out, AA holds up.

He then says, "Yeah, thought you had AK"

Really? Really AK? The truth was, he had QQ and he couldn't fold even though he knew he should. Despite her image he still played the way he played because that is how he plays.

Imo, 90% of rec-fish are the above, they play the way they play because that is how they play. They just are incapable of properly adjusting to image. Even if they are aware of image, their style of play is just too inelastic to properly adjust...

I think the combination of Chicago's, Vernon's, and dgi's posts nail it, particularly with respect to the hand posted by OP.

This is actually a good question.

I'm a rec player, who plays almost exclusively with rec players. There is no set way they/we play. Some recs are damned good and can adjust their play, while others are just fish who play their cards face up like DGI mentioned, or who just call down even when they known they're beat.

Using "rec player" as a way to classify a V is probably a losing strategy. There are way too many combinations. Some of us are business people who take poker very seriously, and compete at it with the same energy we use in the business world (research, analytics, judgment, risk/reward). Others of us just see it as a game to enjoy socially. Your job is to figure out the difference between them.

Personally, I love to show up in Vegas and appear to be that "business guy rec player", find the TAG/LAG reg or pro, watch their tendencies and then attempt to exploit them with my own image. They love to 3b and raise my value hands when scare cards hit the turn. But then I can have total crap hands where I use my image and raise, knowing they view me as a rec, so they fold if they're competent. Since I'm there for the competition (to beat better players), and not an hourly win rate, I seek out those players more than the fish.

I'm not nearly as good as most of you, but I've found that style to be profitable at the 2/5-5/10 stakes. It's not profitable at 1/2 as everyone's so damned straight-forward, and ABC style is most profitable (but more boring that watching paint dry).

Maybe this gives you some insight into your question about how Rec players use or don't use your image.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing on the way back from the casino. If I had broken it up into two bets, I would have got his stack. The reason I shoved is because I shoved on him as a bluff a few times and I thought he was ready to make a stand. I was incorrectly banking on my crazy image getting me called.

This guy was so tilty after this hand he shoved his $145 stack in pre-flop into relatively small pots four times in the following two orbits (never showed). That's why I made this post. I just couldn't understand this V's mindset.

Good point.

LOL. Good story. I think my experiments in Lagville are over for now.

I have notice a few players like that in the past. Maybe you were one of them

Basically this. 1/2 and many 2/5 villains will just label you tight/or aggressive and laugh or needle you to the rest of the table about the former, without being good enough to exploit your image to earn more profiits, hence the fewer hands you showdown the better for you yourself to take advantage of their most basic thoughts of your play.

Maybe he folded because, holding the second king of hearts, he knew his hand would be declared dead?

Sent from my LG-D855 using 2+2 Forums