I'm NOT looking for answers of "Fold pre"

Both villains JUST sat at the table.

Hero (Covers)

V1 (125) Seems annoyed or frustrated about something. I played with him yesterday for about an orbit. Saw one hand he btn straddled and raised to 20, flop A/10/4 he bet 20, turn K, he bet 20, river 4, he bet 20 and had K8
After he left, guy told me he loves to bluff.

V2 (100) Just sat down at the table, never seen him before.

Hero raises to 10 with KJ from MP, V1 calls from CO, V2 from BTN, BB calls as well.

Flop - $40
8910

Hero leads for 20, V1 Calls, V2 raises to 50, BB folds, Both call.

Turn - $190
8910 - K

Checks through.

River - $190
8910 - K - 6

Hero checks, V1 goes allin for $72, V2 folds, Hero...?

Is this a call or a fold?

e: Stop with the fold pre.

I would fold PF. In a LP game I don't like opening KJo from MP.

As played not sure what the question is. You under repped your hand by checking twice, you are getting a good price to look him up with TPGK, call.

Fold pre, no need to play KJo like it's a good raising hand, especially with smaller stacks behind.


You can c-bet, but if you get called, it's check/fold, well now you binked the K, check and see what happens, checked through, now he bets on a 6 river, I just fold.

What do you beat that called the flop?

Don't c-bet the board but don't check, fold. You have the Kc and 3 outs to the uber nuts which huge implied odds.

River is a trivial fold though.

I think I lead the turn.

As played, I'm calling. I think you're good 1 in 3 times here, probably better.

Against a guy who loves to bluff, I agree a bad spot to c-bet especially into 3 others.

I'd just fold preflop. We just got 3 callers to our raise, including two who have position on us, so this obviously doesn't look like the type of table that an MP raise is going to get the result we want (i.e. HU, preferably in position).

This flop smashes a lotta people, I just check/evaluate cuz getting raised (as we did here) sucks. As played, I also call since V1 will probably pad the pot behind us and we're getting ok immediate odds, although our implied odds probably suck and all our outs aren't clean.

I think I call. We're getting good odds (better than 3:1) and closing the action. We're against a known bluffer / ****** better. The flush draw and Jx draws missed. If he hadda flopped a big hand you'd think he woulda pumped the flop on this drawy board after all the flop action.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Busted flush draw.

Busted Jx straight draw.

Tx.

9x.

8x.

Smaller pair.

Qx.

6x.

etc.

I actually think we beat almost everything except 7x or a K + flop pair. Any bigger flopped hands would have raised the flop. And he's a known bluffer who just saw both of his opponents weakly check the turn and us check two streets in a row.

I think the river situation against these type of players are the least of holes you need to plug

Fold pre. Yes, I read your disclaimer.

Cons: You're in bad position, you have a marginal hand, your villain is very active and loves to play back at you, and there are shortish stacks behind you. I would like to hear the "Pros" that you thought of before raising.

As for postflop, you chased an OESD with reverse implied odds and 6 clean outs. Bad news bears. But you were lucky enough to bink top pair, have bluffy villain give you 3:1, and raiser fold. So call. But only because you served the answer up on a plate for us by saying that villain bluffs all the time.

i'm not a fan of the bet/call on the flop. you're not getting anyone off their hand...

fwiw I am folding pre here like 0% of the time

How about "Don't c-bet the flop".

How about call or fold the river? It's been said, fold pre and dont cbet this flop.
Obviously OP wants to know: as played, do I call or fold?

If V1 likes to bluff, it's an interesting spot for him to try it. V2's hand looks a little weak (TPGK-ish) after he raises the flop and then lets it check through when the K shows up. Your hand doesn't look particularly strong when you raise pre, cbet and call the raise, and then check twice. That 6 should be a good bluff card against a PFR and a player that raised the flop but shut down on the turn.

As played...I call. If we really think this guy is a bluff box, I think we are good 1 out of 3 times, and we are getting almost 4-1 on the call.

However...
Here is the problem with the limited info we have though. Yesterday we saw him fire twice with a weak hand, but notice the flop, turn, and river bets were the same. Without other hands to go on, it makes it possible that he is a bluffer with smaller bets, but that his all-in type bets (even if small relative to the pot) are bigger hands. We just don't know and I hate to go off of information passed on by another player.

Tough spot, and honestly, close enough in the grand scheme of things I think a call or fold are about equal here.

BTW, preflop is "meh". Okay with a raise, okay with a fold.

Grunching ...

Only need ~22% equity and you have TP based on opponent's turn check. Opponent looked to be drawing or perhaps AT that he believes is good based on your river check. Question is FD or SD (or both).

Not enthusiastic, but will make the call.

*Grunch

I don't have an issue with opening KJo from MP with new players behind you, unless they are known to be aggro.

I hate leading at this flop - you have three players to act behind you, and this board is very likely to hit somebody. What does this bet hope to achieve? You have K-high and a straight draw on a coordinated, 2-flush board, so we're obviously not betting for value or protection. Both of our opponents start the hand with <70bb, and should either player have lucked into a cheeky little 2-pair/p+fd, sd+fd or even managed to flop the joint, you're likely to get raised or jammed on, and in this case we're not getting the implied, or even immediate odds to continue with our draw.

We need to look at your plan for the hand. Why did you choose to lead this flop? What was your plan should either player raise?

As played, you lead for 1/2 pot, called by a player who's committing half of their stack to do so, and then you have a total unknown player raise into three players for, again, more than half their stack. When we get raised here, we are very rarely going to have a whole lot of equity in this spot, so in my opinion, it should be a snap-fold. When you decide to call the raise, you still have another player to act behind you. What do you do if they shove and the raiser calls? You've already committed $60 to the pot with a hand that is likely to hold very little equity 3 ways on this board - do you just abandon that $60 and fold, or take the pot-odds on offer and call off the rest? Or, when both call, what do you do when a red Ace, or the 2 of spades rolls off on the turn, do you just check and fold to the shove? What turn cards, apart from the offsuit Q, are you calling a shove on? To me, this seems like setting money on fire. I think ideally, I'd be check-calling in this spot up to $20. Both players are too shallow to be speculating.

On the turn - you're heads up, the pot is approaching $200, your opponent has (assuming you're accurate with the $125 to start the hand) $65 behind. You've hit one of the few cards in the deck that MAY have given you the best hand. Are you checking to call the shove? If the answer is anything other than yes, I'll be dumbfounded.

The river brings 4 to a straight with a 7, so it pretty much just comes down narrowing down your opponents range here and stacking it up against the almost 4:1 you're getting on a call. What type of hands that we beat does villain raise on the flop with that they're likely to check back on the turn? A9 / Q9 / AT / J9? I'm sure there's others, but Man Vs. Food just came on, so attention span just died. Anyway, against an unknown, there's just too few worse hands villain can be shoving with for value here, and since we have no idea what his bluffing tendencies are, I think this has to be a fold, though we should never have been in this spot to begin with.

Setting a plan for each hand you play is so critical, and something you should definitely be working on. Thinking one or two streets ahead can really help you to avoid ****ty spots like this where we bleed off chips in spots we shouldn't be in.

Grunch

I'm fine with raising KJo from MP at some tables, but not so much at others. It's really up to you to make that judgement call. But seriously, playing this hand from this position will get you in all kinds of tricky spots, like this one. My honest advice is to "fold pre" whether you like it or not.

So, as played, you really didn't get what you want here, a 4 way pot with two people having position on you. Maybe you already know this, but ideally you would like to be either heads up or 3-way with position on weak opponents when you play a hand like this. This flop is like super gross. You have what is a pretty weak draw OOP on a very wet and coordinated flop. The problem is that you probably have too much equity to just c/f, but you will almost never win this pot with one bet IMO. I think you should check the flop and evaluate. If you do choose to bet, bet more, say $30-$40.

Once V2 raises, just fold. He is short stacked and his raise should signify strength. Despite your good odds to call, you are going to be c/f most turns and you only really want to see 3 cards OTT, the non club Q's.

The river is no fun either. You are now getting 3.64:1 on a call with a hand that may be best. I guess if your read is strong enough to include like Q10 and J10 in V1's shoving range, then call. But, I would think that Villain shows up here with 7x most of the time, so I would fold. Something like 77, 76, 78, 79, or 710.

I think the fact that you made so many comments to the tune of "don't tell me to fold pre" in the OP implies that deep down you already know that playing the hand to begin with might have been a mistake. Playing solid poker and avoiding bad spots starts with pre-flop hand selection. But seriously, I have given you my advice on what I think the best line is post flop, so I suggest you listen to my advice to fold pre. Play smart. If you are going to play speculative hands, do it from the CO or BTN.