1/2 NL @ Winstar

Eff stacks- Hero-550 BB~450 MP~400

MP is a solid TAG, doesnt get out of line and pretty much bets straight forward, pretty easy to tell when he is betting for value/protection. Pretty much your standard ABC TAG.

BB is a bad player, and will easily pay you off with 2nd best hand. Overvalues a lot of his holding, bluffs in really wierd spots, shows occasional aggression just for the hell of it but mostly likes to call down with any piece of the board.

Table has overall been your normal passive 1/2 table

Pre flop-Hero is OTB has Qs8s; 3 limpers before me so I decided to take a cheap flop with a speculative hand.

($12)Flop-2s3s4h; Checks to MP who bets 12; Hero flats; BB flats

($48)Turn-Qc; MP bets 30; Hero calls; BB raises to 75; MP tanks for about 30 seconds and folds; Hero???

Heros action:
a) Fold
b) Call
c) Raise

Easy call, since he is bad and overvalues I expect you to get value out of your FD for the river if you hit. If you hit an 8, I may bet/fold a small amount. Sure he may overvalue his hands but I dont think he raises a river with a weaker holding if you hit the 8. Folding the turn is silly because bad villains dont raise the turn with a big FD, its just a play not seen often. Your outs are clean.

Raising turn is stupid because we are almost always behind and he isnt folding.

So call>>>>>>fold>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raising

Call is your best option, for river evaluation you must look at his line.
BB overcalled OTF, what are we putting him on?

I had him more on 2pr, set or pair and a draw type hand than a made straight. He had raised earlier in my session to a PSB with a made nut straight so I had discounted a lot of the straight combos from his range.

I started leaning a lot more towards 2 pair since he checked twice and basically min popped it (figured he would repop flop or at least lead turn with a set)...so was leaning towards me possibly having 17 clean outs

ez call...go for MAX value if you hit

I wouldn't say we're always behind here. Villains in the way BB is described have strange interpretations of raise sizing for bluffs -- min raising and thinking it will get folds. He could also be raising things like A4 or 99 for value.

Having said that, I'm always calling since I think we're behind about 75% of the time here-- just not always.

if you bink a spade or Q OTR, play for stacks...I call up to about 120-140$ on the river if we make Queens up. I just dont see V betting 120-140$ish on the river with worse that Queens up. spoiler???

I'm cool with playing junk on the Button for cheap.

I'm also cool with flatting the flop and seeing what happens on the turn with position, overs and a flush draw.

When solid MP continues betting the turn against two opponents, don't we have to consider folding? I'd probably fold the first time around.

The second time round we have almost the immediate odds we'd like to chase our draw, so easy call this time, IMO. I wouldn't raise cuz a checkraise vs two opponents on the turn has to be a big hand, no? The only way I put more money into the pot on the river is if I hit my flush. Even Q/8 are probably not good enough for me to pay off a big bet (although I might pay off a very small one).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I ended up flatting and 6c was the river. He insta checked which made me put him squarely on 2 pair. But like I said he was a payoff donkey even a shove OTR wouldn't get him off his hand ~50% of the time so I checked behind since I did have some showdown value.

He flips 23, which actually made me feel really good about flatting his turn bet bc of the odds I was being laid

Solid MP guy went on tilt cause he folded 34 lol

LOL @ BBs raise size vs two players on that board. Does he want to get sucked out on?

fold pre, why limp in with a speculative hand multiway (and id say its not really speculative, its pretty much trash imo). you will rarely flop a nut draw, and when you do you cant make top pair. you wont make a strong enough hand often enough to win a pot large enough to make up for the losses

call the turn. only worse hands fold

I play 1/2 at Winstar too. Overlimping OTB pre here is fine in this game. OTT call here for the same reasons stated above.

So I'm the only one considering a fold the first time around on the turn?

Why limp on the button with limpers ahead of you, leaving you in no man's land if you peel a Qhigh or 8high flop? You should raise preflop. Then you hit a money flop for the hand and c-bet. Then become even stronger on the turn in this scenario. Being the aggressor forces people to reveal their hands more clearly. In this spot, who knows where you are? All you can do is guess.

By being the aggressor here you eliminate the problem of guessing more often than not, and the dynamic of the hand changes dramatically.

We're not in no-man's land / all we can do is guess. We have position, which enables us to evaluate the action on each street in order to help us with our decisions.

I think overlimping here is fine (although I don't hate a raise, especially if the limpers are limp/foldy).

^^THIS...and why fold turn? We are getting better than 4:1. Even if he showed us a set we have to call. And he is likely paying us off on a spade river as well with any value hand he is repping. Call and fold river if we brick.