I played a session this week that really made me think about the difference between winning at LLSNL and crushing these stakes. Until that night, I really thought playing your A game meant having a plan and sticking to it. In other words, I was disciplined, I stuck to the plan. So even if I had a losing session, I could feel good about playing my A game. I now realize that playing your A game is a lot more than playing ABC poker.

I find myself on auto-pilot some times doing the same methodical things: sit down look at everyone's stacks; watch carefully to classify players as passive or aggro, competent or just bad; make a plan for each seat: play lots of flops with passives, put pressure pre-flop and continuation bet 100% against fit-or-fold, etc.; bet/fold against passives, let aggros value town themselves. Almost always a winning plan for the last few months. I run into trouble when a few players actually adjust to my play, or if I get undisciplined and raise for aggression not value. I have this forum to thank for learning how to deal with those leaks.

But that robotic ABC game leaves so much money on the table. What do you guys do that goes beyond ABC poker to crush these games?

Here are some things I have not been doing so far:
1. Value bet thin: take chances where my hand reading skills tell me I'm ahead of villain's range and bet instead of checking behind with mediocre hands.
2. Don't play hands where I'm way ahead like a robot and just hope someone gets coolered. Extract maximum value from these hands. Be creative.
3. Others...?

A few thoughts:

1) Someone posted the following phrase in one of my threads: There's a difference between playing poker the right way and playing it the winning way. How often do you sit there with the nits at the table who wait, wait, wait for AA or a set and then get it in? They win regularly, but they don't often walk out with $1000 on a $200 buyin. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the phrase means, but I've found myself playing a bit looser than I was before I read it.
2) A friend of mine said he heard a podcast talk about 'playing for stacks.' A lot of players are happy to pick up small pot after small pot. And, yes, that can be a winning formula. If you pick up $30 here, $50 there with little risk, you will win money. However, if you are putting yourself in position to win stacks, you can have huge winning nights.

I went sessions without playing a big pot. At least it seemed like it. Then, one night, I found myself all-in in 3 pots in the first 1.5 hours or so I played. I won 2, should have won the 3rd and would have been up close to a grand had I won all three.

I'm sure others will have plenty to add but these two thoughts have really stuck in my head the last few weeks.

I just win in the games I play. I play abc poker, raise for value and play a pretty nitty range. Something like 15%. I always have brutal stretches where I get coolered or bad beat what ever you like to call it. So I'm interested in how people crush games? Since beating the game is never good enough.

I have a friend who plays the same game I do and I sit at his table a lot and he crushes 1/2 for $6K a month average at 140/month. He makes big folds, doesnt pay people off, but he get very lucky! His AA runs into KK a few times a month and holds!

Basically your # 1 and 2 ideas will take you from a winning player to a crushing player if you do them correctly.

Thin value betting is crucial. Low level players call far too much, so value betting thin is crucial to exploiting that weakness. To do this correctly you have to have already assessed the player, the board and have a good plan for your hand from start to finish. You already have it in your head that his range is xxxxxxxx, he will call you with xxxxx which you beat, and only raise with xx which beats you, so you bet/fold. Easy game

Assuming 140 is hours, that implies a sustained winrate of over $40/hr at 1/2. I suspect the fish are getting bigger there all the time.

If true, I know what his biggest leak is.

Your on the right track sir! This is more so what I've been posting about for the past few months. Just cashing out ahead shouldn't be enough. The objective we should have is getting all the chips on the table.

Some things that I focus on

Push every edge to the maximum. If I'm in a spot were I'm LIKELY to have the best of it, I'm fine with getting it all in everytime.

Find your opponents pain threshold. This is huge. Once you find the number in dollar amounts that will "scare" or even get a villians attention, you will own them. Continesly make life miserable for them by

Putting them to the test. I never want to have to make tough decesions. Put your oppenents in the roughest toughest spots you can. The more big decesions they have to make, the more mistakes they'll make.

Don't limp. If you can play post flop there is rarely a time in llnl where you should come into a pot w/o raising. daily there is advice in this forum regarding not bloating pots. Well I want to play big pots all the time. The bigger the put the tougher decesions we can put villians to. We are vastly superior than our opponents in general, so why limp along and play lottery poker. Big raises w/ continuely applying pressure. Play big pots in position. Again make them play out of their comfort zone.

Use your image to your advantage. If your viewed as aggro, value bet relentlessly. If more taggy bluff more. Exploit every little situation you can.

Don't get tricky with monsters. If you flop a full house, bet like you have a full house. So many people worry about losing villians and get minimum value from huge hands. Fire PSB w/ top set, etc. The main leak of average fish is they call to much. So it makes senseTo make them call the most that they will every single time.

Trust your reads. If you think a villian is bluffing but you have a marginal hand, DO NOT wait for a "better spot" call him down. Trust yourself.

Table selection. With the pools of bad players that play live you should almost never be a table where you find yourself not thinking your clearly the best player at the table. No one should give you problems.

Be properly rolled. If your properly rolled you should play fearless. This is so key to success in my mind. I used to play 5/10 and would find myself making decessions based on the money. At 1/2 2/5 this never happens and it leaves me to be able to play so much better. When your fearless and don't worry about the money your results will dramaticly improve I guarentee it.

I try to get stacks in the middle when ever i can. You'll find that there is no subsitute for aggression. These are a few things that I think help me. I'll give you an example of the average week or two of wins and loses for me. Notice I don't very often secure a small win. I win or I lose.

4/4/11 1/2 nlh showboat 7hrs +$1121
4/5/11 1/2 nlh harrahs 5hrs +$1256
4/7/11 1/2 nlh harrahs 3hrs +$267
4/9/11 7.50-15 Om H/L St8 mix harrahs 4hrs +$518
4/10/11 1/2 nlh harrahs 6hrs +$1544
4/12/11 1/2 nlh harrahs 2hrs -$900

Notice I don't play particularly long sessions and I don't play everyday. When I do play I'm fresh and focused. 3 buyins is the absolute max I'm ever willing to lose in one session. The start of March I had been running bad. I lost like 10 buyins in a row but then came back and won more than double that. This month things have settled down. Point is theres no reason we can't all be dominating the low stakes like this.

My goal is to break everyone in the game everyday I play. More than not I attain this kind of result.

hmmmm this is questionable advice for low stakes games

also if you are logging regular +6BI sessions at 1/2 you are running hot

Interesting though. I would love to see a large sample size.

I agree with you, I am a firm believer in limping now. Postflop play is the key in holdem. So raise,limp or call it really does not matter.

It matters a lot actually

Actually it doesn't. I play a very solid game. Solid to me, means very few leaks. No limping, no calling and folding most hands oop.

I see players all the time stacking players. With whatever hand they can get. When the money goes in the middle they have big hands with weak holdings. These players have to know something. If I always see them show up with the goods.

I play boring abc top 15% of hands. I'm starting to think a looser non bloating approach is better to make money in low levels. But I don't have numbers or hours of play under my belt. I just watch a lot of poker all day everyday.

What do you mean by this?

His biggest leak is that he is playing to low. That's what venice means.

I have read many times about ABC poker being a winning formula for LLSNL, and I believe that. But I am really questioning my standard ABC plan. What it has given me is lower variance and a winning formula, but not a crushing formula. If I'm willing to deal with higher variance, is a there a better plan than ABC poker to crush these games with a little run good? I guess I am not happy with my low variance low winnings sessions, when the competition is so transparent and so beatable. Some nights I just see some players donk away buy-in after buy-in, and making huge bets with their big hands because they want to win that hand (forget making the most money), and calling off all their chips on flush draws, and none of it seems to come my way, and I just think, "I should be able to stack these guys, what am I doing wrong?" Is it because I'm just playing ABC poker? Is that code for "you're not taking enough risks?"

I can empathise with this. Live players at these stakes are generally so bad and so obvious, but because I dont get involved without premium holdings, other competent players who mix it up with speculative hands stack them time and again. How do they know when TPGK is good for their whole stack? Someone please tell

ABC is code for not forcing the issue. Letting hands come to you other then playing every pot with the fish.

Some players will make sure they play every playable hand with the fish. Everytime the fish limp, they will limp along waiting for a postflop situation. Instead of a good preflop situation.

You see the writing on the wall. Your exactly right. There is a better style than abc. Its what ever your own personal style morphs into. Once you play enough you will realise different things that you do well and things that you don't do well. So over time you must develop a formula that plays to your strengths and eleviates your weaknesses.

An example from my own game is that I hate making river decesions. Hate it I never want to get to the river and not know where I'm at. So I don't do it. I almost always come in for a raise, I pound away and by the time we get to the river I know exactly where I'm at and the decesions are simple.

Am I value betting, am I folding, am I c/r as a bluff? Knowing where your at in a hand at all times is so key. This becomes so much easier playing one or two players. In 1/2 2/5 its impossible to put anyone on a hand in an unraised pot.

However when you have reads on people and you raise and force the action and play big pots this becomes simple. At these stakes vills play straight forward in big pots. Use their weaknesses against them. They'll never mix up their play, never.

I stand by not limping atleast for me.

Another thing for me is I play laggy. At this level I feel I can hand read and out play literally 99% of vills. So the more pots I can play with them the better. I trust in myself and mix it up all day long.

The bad players can't give you their money if your not in the pot!!

I would also say that 70% of the times I play I have a stack of 1k+ I'm not writing that as a brag, someone just said I'm running hot.
I don't believe this to be the case at all. I've supported myself and my girl for the better part of a decade playing cards.
The games I currently play in max buyin is $300 for 1/2 also so that helps.

If your always putting people to the test and forcing them out of their comfort zone you'll start winning more. Don't sit back and wait for hands, get in there and capitalize on your opponents weaknesses.

ABC poker is for people who can't play poker. Constantly people say that theres no need to try an "outplay" or out think vills. Just sit back and let them pay off your good hands.
Two things: 1 If you don't continuesly try to improve your game you'll never get better. never. you'll be stuck squeeking out $200 a session and get killed when you run bad.
2 The amount of money your letting on the table taking this approach is mind numbing!

IDK I generally think a more aggressive higher variance style is the only way to go in todays live games.

This prob comes off as a brag or dumb rant, thats not my attention. I was once in your exact spot and I truely beleive theres a better way. Your just going to have to find it your self. Build your own style, not what a book, or a buddy or forum says.

Open it up and trust yourself!

Hand reading and the only way to get good at it is play hands and put yourself in situations w/o the nuts!

Sounds like bunch of crap to me, or you guys are part-time homeless.

Lmao

A player who is crushing; adapts to their opponent to get max value from everybodies induvidual state/tendancies (i.e. tilting, nitting it up) and the way they are likely to react to each other. He changes gears when players start exploiding his stylo. And his name is Phil.

And people post you don't read what other people post.

ILCD is correct. In live, about 10BB/hr is considered crushing a game. If you are beating it for significantly more, you are actually losing value because the skill difference between say 1/2 and 2/5 is far less than the difference between crushing 1/2 and beating 2/5 soundly.

I've let this thread go for a while. IMO, the goal of "crushing" a level of poker is simply ego talking. If it makes you feel good, then that's fine. If your goal is to maximize your winnings, you want to move up where you aren't "crushing" but simply beating a level. If you're winning $20/hr at 1/2, you're crushing it. If you move to 2/5 and win $30/hr, you aren't crushing poker anymore, but you're winning more. For those at 1/2 that want to crush a game, I suggest playing 2nl on-line. Pretty easy to crush that game.

That said, crushing a poker game is easy. You simply have to be by far the best player at exploiting the other players at your table. As limon suggests, you have a plan to take everyone's money at the table. That plan can be different every player. There's no one or two magic bullets that will get you there. Table selection is more important than actual skills.

As for the post earlier about styles and is there a better style than ABC? I think that there is a better way to play poker than ABC. This may sound crazy but I have tried to play ABC poker and I cant do it that well. I sit and wait for a hand, in position, get it in and someone with Q7o stacks me or my KK loses to something crazy. Now that in itself is fine, bad beats happen. But I also see hands that I used to play in spots where I have a read or some mental thing clicks and I say you should be playing this hand... I fold it bc it isnt ABC but that hand would have won and would have been easy to extract value.

Maybe it is my limit background and how I think of hands and value and bluffs and all that but I think that YOUR style is the best. Its about improving on YOUR style. So if your a hyper-aggro player then take some ABC style traits and mix it in but you cant just go to a new style.

And dont forget that image has a lot to do with it as well! Its hard to change perceptions so just always think about what they think about you.

It depends on the table and personally, bankroll. I don't think you should have one distinct styles. Some game conditions call for a straight forward abc style, some conditions call for a highly agressive, fearless, play for stacks style.

Also it depends on your personal skill level and bankroll. Some people make a profit playing a tag, abc style. Then when they try to open up their game and play a lag style, they (me) lose.

But in the end I remember reading a post on this great forum, in that there is no "right" style, all there is is +ev. Or waiting for any spot that deems profitable. I had a friend tell me poker is a game of patience, not patience in terms of waiting for aces or a set, but patience for that right spot that's going to make you money.

On ther hand I've experimented with the high variance, gambool it up, play for stacks style poker (you know semi bluff every opportunity, raising 100 percent of your hands, never folding). I booked some big wins and took some big hits. Basically I found poker is like life, it's all about balance.

But what do I know, I suck at poker.