As DGAF and others have pointed out, you need the following skills/personality traits to be a successful pro:

1. Extreme competitiveness.
2. Phenomenal psychological toughness.
3. Intelligence (particularly logic and math).
4. Certain social skills.

In the event you have that combination (definitely less than 1% of the population) you also have to fade a bunch of variance, not only on the table but in other areas of your life.

After 15 years in banking (mostly mid-level risk analysis work), I decided to play professionally. Despite winning a non-trivial amount of money over the course of 15 months, I don't have the full array of skills needed to be successful and eventually busted my roll.

Did I fail? Was it a mistake?

Absolutely, emphatically, unequivocally NO, and here's why:

1. I learned more about myself in 15 months of poker than in 15 years of banking. It's easy to float along collecting checks in a corporation, but playing poker forces you to constantly analyze yourself, not just the game, and you experience a phenomenal amount of personal/emotional growth.

2. Oddly, "gambling" made me a much more responsible and mature person than working a straight-laced finance job. Running your own business (which is what playing professionally is) is an eye-opening experience.

3. Most importantly for me, I learned it's okay to fail. I've had a paralyzing fear of failure my entire life. It's prevented me from doing/trying an uncountable number of things. Well, I tried poker, I failed, and you know what...it's really not that big a deal. Beyond some financial stress (which I admit is VERY REAL), nothing happens. You don't die or anything. I felt sorry for myself for a few days and then said, "**** it, time to move on."

Cliffs: Went bust and it was the most valuable/educational/enriching experience I've ever had!!

I've loved lurking this forum and feel a tremendous amount of respect for some of the regular posters even though I don't know you. I'll continue to check in from time to time to see how you guys are doing. Good luck to you all.

Nice post

1. How many hours did you put in and track BEFORE you went pro, and what was your win-rate for that time?

2. What was your ratio of hours of playing/training?

3. What stakes did you play before, and after going pro?

4. What was your starting bankroll?

5. What was your starting overhead?

6. Most important imo, did you have ANY debt at the point of turning pro?

Yes, I'm 40 with a wife and two kids in private school. Debt comes with that package.

I realize I could still be playing if I'd managed my roll better when I was running good or done a few other things, but one of the things I learned is I don't want to be a professional poker player, so it's ok my mistakes led to this outcome. Regardless of whatever technical progress I made or could continue to make, I don't have the psychological toughness to deal with the massive swings without it affecting me away from the table, and I don't want my kids' lives to be affected by how Dad is running - not just b/c I was too low emotionally when losing but also b/c I was too high emotionally when winning.

Something else was a problem for me, too. There are two kinds of whales: 1. The kind I hated being around because they suck as humans. 2. The kind I enjoyed being around and, therefore, felt kind of gross about being so predatory towards. I tried to work on that, to tell myself to enjoy taking money from the *******s and not feel bad taking money from the nice guys because no one was forcing them to play, but I could never really generate that mindset. In the end, I still hated being around the *******s and still felt gross about taking money from the nice guys.

Good post, not sure what social skills you mean are required though but the other points are spot on.

props, gl

sounds like you got a lot out of the experience even though it didn't work out....if you try most things in life odds are you're going to fail a lot of them but I have a lot more respect for those who try and fail then those who never tried.

Losing 30k while playing a lot of 5/10 is like a prty standard downer think you just underestimate variance (Esp if it's deep where folks are buying in @ 200bb+
Get together some more dough and run better next time!

I actually had gross winnings of just under $50K....I also spent just under $80K

I take it this is uncapped you are talking about only? Losing 30k at 100-200bb capped seems pretty degen.

If ur buying in at 2k that's 15 bis which if you run bad can get burned up prty quick if your playing every day
Full time pros w no other income should really have like 75- 100bis for their game

Doesn't look like he lost the money playing poker, just didn't make enough to cover life expenses. This is why its so much easier for young unmarried or old people on pensions to do it.

Do not feel badly about taking money from "the nice guys". I'll presumptuously place myself in this category and say that people like us appreciate solid competition, and WE KNOW that the pros/regs are gunning for us. That's what makes it fun. No reason to feel bad, as we are typically playing with money we budgeted to lose anyways. Yes, we hate losing money like anyone else (any "rich" person who says they don't care about money is either lying, or probably didn't earn it themselves starting from nothing), but as long as the regs are nice, we'll keep coming back. In fact, I love to battle with these types of regs and will give them more action as a result.

Look at it this way - we (rec players) know this is your job and we don't begrudge you for trying to make a living. I certainly don't feel bad for taking money from my customers, since I know I'm giving them value in return.

Rich, successful guys who budget their poker playing and enjoy being hunted are way, way the exception when it comes to losing players at the table. In fact most of your type are decent+ at poker/hardly paying anyone's bills.

The majority of losing players are gambling degenerates who don't budget and can't afford to lose what they lose. Seat changing, table scouting iPad watching grinders generally annoy the **** out of them/they don't like the idea of "poker pro" whatsoever. And even if you are cool to them and not super predatory and lame, it feels gross inside when you run even+ against them and they have zero chance to not lose everything.

Naxetami: My guess, based on nothing more than the reasonableness/coherence/thoughtfulness of your post, is that you're a pretty good player, maybe a big underdog vs. elite competition but certainly able to hold your own vs. middling winning players like me.

The type of guy DGAF describes was much more common. I also came to believe that position was EVERYTHING so I was a big seat changer, which of course looks douchey, and quite frankly felt predatory and douchey as well.

doubt u need anywhere near that many BIs for a 200bb live 5/10 game.....

I think if you are comfortable and the game is soft 20-25bi+year living expenses is fine.

It's fine if you want to go busto and get a real job, or move down/start playing out of your life money

I'll take the over on 20-25 bi+ year of living expenses
I'll also take the under on 75-100 bi
It definitely varies based on how the game plays/how you play... lag/tag/whatever,as well as infinite other factors---would be curious to hear dgafs opinion of say how much you need to go from playing 5/10nl (2k cap) to 10/25nl (2500 min, no cap, lets say avg stack is 5k)...assuming the 10/25 plays looser and general variance will be higher in that game

Nice post OP, I came out of poker with similar experiences and wouldn't trade the time I spent chasing my dream for anything. It's been a few years since I played for a living and looking back I realise it was the hard work I put into myself and the game that was the real reward, so failure to maintain poker as my main income never felt like a fail. Some good life lessons to be learned from poker.

I think you'd need a bigger bankroll playing 5/10 1k max then 5/10 2k max given how rare it is you'll get your whole stack in at 2k max without a massive equity advantage.....Id imagine a great LAG buying in deep has the lowest variance - he'll win small pots here and there while the tag just wittles away and has to rely on big equity spots to make up ground.

^^hmmmm, would love to hear some of the livepoker nl endbosses chime in (gman, dgaf etc)....my intuition disagrees with your claim but I could very well be wrong

I've clocked about 2500 hours live and i'm in a similar spot as Tier1Capital (except I'm not nearly anywhere as good)

But running up 2/5nl, 5/10nl, and 2/5 PLO, i have to say there probably isnt much correlation with this as there are other factors that would make a "great LAG" higher variance.

20-25bi + a year's living expenses is probably roughly equal to 75-100bi for a lot of people. It is for me anyway. What makes an adequate bankroll has so many variables, many not even poker-related, that I'm not sure it's possible to have a productive general discussion...except to say that everyone but Bill Gates is under-rolled for PLO.

One last thing: Playing for a living really did suck ALL of the fun out of the game. I told my brother the other day, "I'll be surprised if I ever play another hand of NL in my life." Playing limit mixed games is fun, and I definitely want to make it out to Vegas next summer for a couple of mixed games tournaments, but I'd rather clean the garage than sit down at a 5/10NL table.

Good thread, but there's one thing it seems you had that many don't and that is a backup plan. I had a similar story to you. I played for a bit, made decent money, am super happy I did, but ultimately decided it wasn't my best long-term option.

But for every you or me, there are a hundred 20-somethings who dropped out of college to chase the poker dream. You didn't say exactly what you did when you stopped but I'm assuming you had a job to go back to. I've seen countless people fail at poker without a backup plan, and it's never pretty or a story of self-growth. It typically starts with a scam. I personally have been scammed by no less than 4 poker so-called friends in that exact situation. They then end up moving back in with their parents at 30 with absolutely no life skills and a huge resume gap. Maybe they get a minimum wage job, maybe they get a stake for micro stakes that barely covers expenses let alone pays back those they scammed from.

Either way it's really sad to see intelligent people with a bright future throw it away for poker that is ultimately fueled by laziness. They come across some tough times in school and think they're way better than they are at poker and neglect the fact that professional poker is extremely hard work.

Don't take this post to be discouraging people from following their dreams and trying to go pro I'm so glad I did I've met a lot of great people learned a ton about myself seen parts of the world practically no one my age has and matured so much while playing a game that to this day I still enjoy.

But I believe that even if I had fallen flat on my face and had to give up my dream after 6 months I still wouldn't regret my decision. And that's the important part. If you're in a situation where failing will sting but not ruin your life then by all means do it. You're much better off losing some money and failing at your dream than looking back on your life regretting not doing it. But if the alternative to achieving your dream is struggling to live for the rest of your life I think attempting to go pro is a pretty big mistake.