Dgi, I agree...if you're saying I need to think it out more during the hand, most definitely. I get that for sure.

To specify more about the Villain, I can see in hindsight
1. I'm giving him too much credit as a decent thinking player...just because he takes a lot of notes
2. he DID make other mistakes (which I list below for Duke)
3. I only played with him probably a total of 30-40 minutes because he kept getting up to leave the table.


Mistakes I observed:
1. limping too much, playing too many hands
2. My Villain played a hand whereas he had TPTK on the turn and other player called and then the River completed the flush draww, my V bet again with his TPTK and the other villain in his hand called with the flush. My villain went on and on verbally, "how can you call that, I just don't believe you can make that call on my bet on the river (PSB), how can you make that call!!?"

So with that said, note taking or not...he was reacting and limping like a fish. I let the note taking "throw me", gave it too much credence towards his abilities as a poker player.

(keep in mind though, I did see his raises as being proficient in hands that he did win and I saw him value bet twice and both times with proper sizing.)

well OP didnt describe villain as a calling station. he described him as an above average player who pays attention and makes some mistakes.

against a fish, i agree that we should b/f river every time. but against an above average player, there definitely is a chance he is c/c his sets and KT because of the 3rd spade and c/f his Tx.

i think in this case, we do need more information to decide whether to bet or check river.

ok taking that in mind, id b/f river with our hand since now i think he never has a set, KT, flush, or overpair

hes not limping overpair pre and hes betting the other 3 on the river

so his range is pretty much 1pair Tx here

Oz,
very good point. I've seen Dgi and others bring that up a lot too. Over thinking it whereas, I'm giving the Villain waaaay too much credit in his thinking abilities. Note taking or not, in hindsight this Villain was a fish (still learning) either way you cut it and after you see what ended up, you'll all have fun with that too!!

LOL...let's see, If I'm a 1.5-2.0 level.. ..then this Villain was a 1.2689 level. LOL

I think most of you would have been raping both of us at our table....

Keep the advice coming boys and girls, I HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE "we're gonna rape that dude" category!!!

Level 2.0...I'm coming .....I'm coming!!

You guys have been great....this screwball little hand? I've learned a lot, now I know why DGI and Mpethy have been pushing me to POST!!

by the way, when do you want me to put up the results...

To refresh everyone's memory to the hand:

Looking back….Dgi’s recommendation would have worked, I’m sure he would have folded at that point, with a raise on the turn but as it was, I felt my hand was medium strength at best and I didn't want to build the pot. I wasn't thinking ahead to the possible flush bluff, if you will. If I'm planning correctly then a raise tells the story perfectly. Correct?


So as it turned out my thinking was skewed as pointed out by some of you…

For whatever reason, when the King hit the river and he checked, I felt like he had JJ, QQ at that point and I realize now, not only is that incorrect thinking but also the incorrect way to put a person on a range (two specific hands is not a range). And also the fact he didn't open with a raise.

But at the time of the hand, that’s what I was thinking. So I decided to represent the flush and after he checked the river, I bet $40.00.

He actually tanked for about a minute or so but finally at the end, he said, “o.k. if you’ve got the flush, so be it!” (exactly like what so many of you say they do and say)….

He called, I showed my A10 and he showed K 2 !!

He offered an explanation because he felt guilty (because I didn’t ask for one…). He said, “sorry man, I figured you had the flush but I just couldn’t fold my King and I made up my mind from the beginning I was betting out this hand ALL the way.” Those were his exact words.

So much for my “reading my villain’s image”!! Jeeeeezus. As you can tell by my play of this hand, I overrated his ability and next time I will keep them in the fish category until they prove me otherwise.

On the way home from the casino, I knew I was going to post this hand but I of course self-critiqued it 10 ways to the moon!!

At one point in my thought process, even though I had him on JJ or QQ…something in my gut told me to check. I went against my gut. BUT..I don’t know if my gut’s smart enough yet to take over my decisions!!

I also thought to myself and I would appreciate some thoughts on this: if I truly am going to bluff in that situation, I need to be more serious with the sizing. I should have made a PSB. Thoughts??

I made it $40 because again, my naivety gave him too much credit as a thinker. I thought he would see the $40 bet as a typical value bet with a flush.

The thing is villain's calling range otr needs to be more than 50% hands we beat for a bet to be profitable. It does not matter, at all, how often we are ahead here. The only hands in V's range that we're ahead of, that he will call a bet with, are QT and JT. Maybe T9. It's curious that he checked, but could he be checking back a value hand because he's afraid of the flush? I don't see why not. And if he's calling with Tx, he's calling with 2p/sets. So his calling range otr is KT, QT, JT, T9, T8, T3, 33, 88, TT. We're ahead of 24 combos and behind 25. So if he's calling T9 on the river, it's close but still incorrect to b/f. But if he's folding T9, it's very incorrect to bet.

I don't think he ever shows up with T-rag here based on his description. Against a random opponent, perhaps.

e: Your thinking in your results post is totally flawed. It's really bad. You got a ton of money in good and now you get to the river and villain checks to you and you have a hand that rates to be best the vast majority of the time here and you want to bluff him out of the pot instead of just taking a free showdown? That is some serious, serious results-oriented nonsense.

+1
Gobbledygeek, your take on this makes sense and as the hand developed I was definitely thinking some of your thoughts, so I know I'm starting to "get it" but I have to keep banging away, so I get ALL OF IT.

Thanks DK...

plus I have to pinpoint my thinking better...as stated by you and others.

I ended up taking his check as "general weakness" and I KNOW BETTER THAN THAT!

so what was his explanation for betting the flop and turn with K2o?

dont try to bluff at 1/2 unless you have a solid read that hes capable of folding

if you do bluff, make it more

That he decided before the flop, that he "was going to bet the hand through every street." He didn't care what he had or what the flop was. So he said. . . . .

I hear ya!

This hand is a litmus test between winning players and players that CRUSH.

Many winning and decent players will check this river back.

Players that Crush will bet/fold this river.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding elitist, but this spot is EXACTLY the kinda spot that provides an opportunity to realize value that most players will not.

The biggest mistake by far at 1/2nl is that villains will overcall. FFS, give your villains a chance to a mistake overcall. Not to mention the balance aspect here of going for thin value and bet/folding.

Or put another way. If you do not think this is a spot to extract value with a thin value bet. I would be interested in you posting an example of a good spot to go for a thin value bet.

So ....
1. If I'm bluffing, I need to bet more
2. If this is b/f value bet, then my $40.00 is spot on, correct?
3. Some say I should check back

Bart Hanson also preaches value betting in these types of situations (I believe)

1) it's villain dependent but generally yes to bluff u need to bet more (60-70 is good)
2) bet 25-30 on river. I might even bet 20 on river if u don't think he'll bluff raise. The smaller the bet the more likely ull get a crying call. Especially when villain is getting 3:1 or better

Thanks Slim!

boards 10 8 3 4, and you dont think we can get value from worse with a10 here? on the turn? you dont think a tpgk will call?

kind of think thats ridiculous to assume

In my observation, you need to have an appropriate image to extract thin value on this kind of river. If you are a young, aggressive player especially if you have shown bluffs this session, its a clear bet/fold spot. If you are a mid-age reg who has been playing/or is known for playing somewhat snug - you have to check behind as it will be hard to get value.

Dude, you are way over thinking this. Majority of our villains at 1/2nl will be pseudo Level 1 players that can't see beyond their own cards.