Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image

07-25-2015 , 09:12 PM
Some people think that having a tight image gives you license to fire multiple bullets with air. My personal experience has been quite different.

When I c-bet, I have had multiple occasions where a player has folded and shown me top pair. If they are folding those sorts of hands, then what is their range when they call me?

Obviously, those players were a bit of an outlier, but the point is that players who perceive me as tight are calling my preflop raises with a tighter range than against other players and they have a tighter range for calling my flop continuation bet. Regs who flop two pair OOP against me are much more likely to check-call the flop, check-call the turn, and check and go into the tank if I bet the river instead of leading out or check-raising me somewhere along the way.

Basically, there are other players who should be much more willing to fire a second barrel because opponents have a wider range when someone like me should be more selective about bluffing a second time because I scare some players into having a OMC-ish range.

The flipside to this is that when I am the one OOP, they are afraid to raise me without the nuts, so I can fire blocking bets with my draws, then get them to pay me off when I hit (so long as I don't bet too big) because they think I was betting with a made hand instead of betting on the come.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-25-2015 , 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianNit
Some people think that having a tight image gives you license to fire multiple bullets with air. My personal experience has been quite different.

When I c-bet, I have had multiple occasions where a player has folded and shown me top pair. If they are folding those sorts of hands, then what is their range when they call me?

Obviously, those players were a bit of an outlier ...
Fine, but you need to way loosen up against these people.

Adjust adjust adjust.

You're asking about double barreling, but the real issue is happening way before the turn; you're probably way too tight pre-flop and/or c-bet with a too low frequency. If anyone is folding top pair to a c-bet, you probably need to increase both your pre-flop open and c-bet frequencies with a goal of reaching the most +EV equilibrium, all the while re-adjusting for any villain re-adjustments.

Imo this isn't about double barreling at all.

Loosen up. You're playing too tight. The biggest issue is one you didn't mention in your OP: your tightness is limiting your ability to get value because people fold worse too often. To be honest, it sounds a little OMC-like: the only player type against which I might fold some flopped top pair hands.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-25-2015 , 09:32 PM
In other words, exploit your tight image, don't embrace it.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-25-2015 , 09:41 PM
You don't even have to loosen up your pre flop play. You probably just bet the flop waaay too hard combined with a tight image.

If you are tight + bet the pot = lots of folds, even bad players can figure this out

Tight + weak bets = Lots of people wanting to suck out on you, missing usually and you winning money
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-25-2015 , 09:54 PM
I'm not really super-tight. My image is more like tight and competent but tricky and capable of selectively raising 53s UTG and making people feel stupid for paying me off when I outflop them.

I'd probably sum it up like this...some regs see me as a player who, if I raise with AQ and they call me in one of the blinds and an ace flops, I will probably get them for three streets of value if they have AJ/AT, but I am likely to check behind once or twice when they have AK and I might check behind if they turn or river two pair.

I bluff and they know I bluff, but I almost never show my bluffs and I don't make the sort of advertising bluffs that are probably -EV for that hand in the hopes of getting paid off on future hands. My most successful bluffs are those that represent slowplays or hitting draws and being the aggressor tends to diminish the viability of those bluffs.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-25-2015 , 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmyrage
You don't even have to loosen up your pre flop play. You probably just bet the flop waaay too hard combined with a tight image.

If you are tight + bet the pot = lots of folds, even bad players can figure this out

Tight + weak bets = Lots of people wanting to suck out on you, missing usually and you winning money
I never bet the pot on the flop unless that's pretty much a shove. I probably bet about half the pot multi-way OOP with top set on a wet board.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-25-2015 , 10:20 PM
Poker is just logic. Bet to get someone to fold out better or call with worse. If they fold too tight, loosen up ur betting range. If they call alot, value bet hard.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-25-2015 , 10:37 PM
Sounds to me like your style has too many rules to follow.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-26-2015 , 04:37 AM
LOL, is this thread nothing but a self-stroking giant brag?

Yes, you are awesome.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-26-2015 , 05:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
Loosen up. You're playing too tight. The biggest issue is one you didn't mention in your OP: your tightness is limiting your ability to get value because people fold worse too often. To be honest, it sounds a little OMC-like: the only player type against which I might fold some flopped top pair hands.
Ok, but how loose? How loose are you? What's your ranges?

I open [always open with a raise]
UTG: 9.65%
UTG+1/2: 12.5%
UTG+3: 14.5%
HJ: 17.9%
CO: 23,7%
B: 47.5%
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-26-2015 , 08:59 AM
Just bluff these clowns until they start calling you, then tighten 'er back up.

I wish I could get people to fold top pair...

Hell, I wish I could make top pair...
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-26-2015 , 09:54 AM
Yeah OP, I still say the solution is to loosen up. You're saying some people call you pre-flop with a very tight range (so open more pre - ramp up your frequencies especially in LP) and call your c-bet with a very tight range (so c-bet more since your c-bets work a greater %; in fact, you should c-bet 100% against people who would ever fold top pair against you). Of course, when someone like that calls you pre AND calls your c-bet, your double barrel frequency needs to be a bit lower than, say, mine. However, while less frequent, your double barrels should be MORE effective as long as you're reading ranges and texture well.

Like we open pre-flop, flop comes J62r, you c-bet (please tell me you c-bet that flop close to 100% heads up). Villain calls.

Ok. Here, against YOU, villain, like you say, might have a fairly tight range. Absolutely barrel any turn A, K and Q. If those give villains two pair, unlucky. If you get called, you need to consider a third barrel once you consider combinatorics and ranges, etc.

Now, in that same spot, against ME, a lot of villains peel lighter than against you. I must be more active pre and post. I can get peels by A-high, 77-TT, and sometimes air / weak back doors. So I'll often barrel the same scare cards you should... but I'll sometimes (based on many factors) also barrel relative blanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
Ok, but how loose? How loose are you? What's your ranges?

I open [always open with a raise]
UTG: 9.65%
UTG+1/2: 12.5%
UTG+3: 14.5%
HJ: 17.9%
CO: 23,7%
B: 47.5%
Do you track every live hand you play by position?

Cool.

This looks great to me. You're probably in good shape. I do think you could loosen up a touch more in late position.

Depending on your reads on the BTN, I think you can open up a touch more in HJ and in CO. I actually really appreciate your BTN discipline in terms of being a touch below 50%, but I do expect you can open that up a touch to steal more and that it'll increase your win rate slightly. Of course, you want to consider the blinds. Against some blinds, you can open 100%. Against others, not so much. There's no perfect #, but I do think you could a touch higher.

That all said, I think your #s generally look great, and, not knowing your actual hands / ranges, if you don't change a thing in terms of your frequencies, you're probably in pretty good shape in terms of positional opening ranges.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote
07-26-2015 , 12:48 PM
I loosen up differently from how you might loosen up. If there was a situation where I normally raise with AJ+/KQ/TT+ and I felt that I needed to add a few more hands to my range, I don't add in AT/KJ/99, I add in fractions of hands like 87/65/42.

I also sometimes limp with strong hands. This tends to create the illusion that I have a tighter range than I do when I actually raise.
The conundrum of double barreling with a tight image Quote

      
m