Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges

07-29-2019 , 09:13 AM
I started off this topic in the low stress strat questions thread for a very specific situation, but wanted to dive deeper.

I was originally asking about a reg that hero has a FOS 3 betting image against. This villain calls hero's 3 bets almost every single time (have seen him call A5o OOP) and is sticky post flop. For these reasons I started constructing 3 betting ranges vs him and only included hands that had 50% equity + vs his perceived opens at each size (he exploitatively sizes his raises.) Does this sound right, or should I 3 bet even wider because he's calling so wide that he'll inevitably miss a lot of flops?


Other than that, I was wondering for constructing ranges vs other villains -

I know for others, the 50%+ rule I'm using for this villain won't apply because a lot of villains just fold all non premium holdings to 3 bets, and some call way too wide, but then fold flops way too frequently. How would you suggest constructing the best ranges vs these other opponents?


*****
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
I started off this topic in the low stress strat questions thread for a very specific situation, but wanted to dive deeper.

I was originally asking about a reg that hero has a FOS 3 betting image against. This villain calls hero's 3 bets almost every single time (have seen him call A5o OOP) and is sticky post flop. For these reasons I started constructing 3 betting ranges vs him and only included hands that had 50% equity + vs his perceived opens at each size (he exploitatively sizes his raises.) Does this sound right, or should I 3 bet even wider because he's calling so wide that he'll inevitably miss a lot of flops?


Other than that, I was wondering for constructing ranges vs other villains -

I know for others, the 50%+ rule I'm using for this villain won't apply because a lot of villains just fold all non premium holdings to 3 bets, and some call way too wide, but then fold flops way too frequently. How would you suggest constructing the best ranges vs these other opponents?


*****

If he is calling you super wide OOP he thinks he has an advantage on you on post flop play.

Make sure you aren’t leaking post flop before widening your preflop range.

Or just call and play from position. 3 bet works best when they fold
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 10:49 AM
I would use a merged range leaning more towards the value side, and then lower my c-bet frequency. This way I'm only c-betting with value hands and hands with a lot of equity.

Also I'm assuming since he's sticky he's relatively aggressive when he senses weakness, so try trapping him after 3-betting.
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 11:01 AM
Villain is primarily just a station. If he shows aggression, he has a combo draw or very strong value...Villain passively plays most draws. Hero also plays post flop better.

I'm more so wondering about the other opponents in the second half of the post, but do appreciate all thoughts on the specific villain.
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
Villain is primarily just a station. If he shows aggression, he has a combo draw or very strong value...Villain passively plays most draws. Hero also plays post flop better.

I'm more so wondering about the other opponents in the second half of the post, but do appreciate all thoughts on the specific villain.
So against this specific villain, you only 3 bet for value, and you only cb value and very strong draws.

For others, based on your statements, 3 bet wide and cb all but the worst flops. If they fold to any bet size, bet small; then you're getting the best of all worlds by getting a lot of folds and losing the minimum when you don't.
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
Villain is primarily just a station. If he shows aggression, he has a combo draw or very strong value...Villain passively plays most draws. Hero also plays post flop better.

I'm more so wondering about the other opponents in the second half of the post, but do appreciate all thoughts on the specific villain.
If villain is calling a lot of 3b and then holding on for dear life...why on earth do we want to 3ball anything but value?

This shouldn't be that difficult.
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
If villain is calling a lot of 3b and then holding on for dear life...why on earth do we want to 3ball anything but value?

This shouldn't be that difficult.
He's calling so wide that he won't connect with a lot of flops and will have to fold a lot
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
He's calling so wide that he won't connect with a lot of flops and will have to fold a lot


But you said he is a station which implies he doesn't fold a lot post flop
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
But you said he is a station which implies he doesn't fold a lot post flop
He'll get married to marginal made hands, but will fold junk, and he'll have junk a lot of the time.
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
If villain is calling a lot of 3b and then holding on for dear life...why on earth do we want to 3ball anything but value?

This shouldn't be that difficult.
Even if this is true there’s still a question of what counts as “value.”

Just 3-betting hands with 50% equity or better is not great. I would much rather 3-bet 98s than A7o for example even if the latter had much more equity against most ranges. Playability is much more important than equity unless you’re shallow.

We should probably still c-bet bluff a lot for a smaller sizing even if villain is sticky. He will have too much air that doesn’t even have backdoors or overs and will just have to fold.
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by browni3141
Even if this is true there’s still a question of what counts as “value.”

Just 3-betting hands with 50% equity or better is not great. I would much rather 3-bet 98s than A7o for example even if the latter had much more equity against most ranges. Playability is much more important than equity unless you’re shallow.

We should probably still c-bet bluff a lot for a smaller sizing even if villain is sticky. He will have too much air that doesn’t even have backdoors or overs and will just have to fold.
So it's probably hard to tackle what the right amount of playable hands to 3 bet? Not only vs this opponent but others?
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffChang
If he is calling you super wide OOP he thinks he has an advantage on you on post flop play.

Make sure you aren’t leaking post flop before widening your preflop range.

Or just call and play from position. 3 bet works best when they fold
Well I suspect OP is good enough to own a regfish who calls trash OOP like A5o, which really shouldn’t be too difficult when he’s IP

Last edited by Minatorr; 07-29-2019 at 07:17 PM.
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-29-2019 , 07:14 PM
As for 3-betting hands hot and cold equity isnt everything. I’d 3b very liberally IP but put the brakes on OOP.

IP depending on positions, i’d 3b around 6-20%. Mid SCs/suited broadways/suited aces/AJo+ and possibly lighter depending on what position he opened from bc he’s lol 3b calling A5o
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-31-2019 , 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr
As for 3-betting hands hot and cold equity isnt everything. I’d 3b very liberally IP but put the brakes on OOP.

IP depending on positions, i’d 3b around 6-20%. Mid SCs/suited broadways/suited aces/AJo+ and possibly lighter depending on what position he opened from bc he’s lol 3b calling A5o
I would not 3 bet so wide against a calling station. Play a wide range, but don't 3 bet wide. You just put extra money in with substandard hands for no reason. Instead, i'd 3 bet QJs and better. Call with anything reasonable to play for stacks when he can't fold top pair against your flush/ straight/ set.
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-31-2019 , 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bailashtoreth
I would not 3 bet so wide against a calling station. Play a wide range, but don't 3 bet wide. You just put extra money in with substandard hands for no reason. Instead, i'd 3 bet QJs and better. Call with anything reasonable to play for stacks when he can't fold top pair against your flush/ straight/ set.
This. I’ve started to actually call a lot of my value hands against these villains since they are dominated a ton. Call with KQ, AQ, JJ, JTs+ type hands if other players will fold and then you play HU in position. This will use more of your postflop edge. Then I’ll 3bet QQ+, AK, AQs. I think we benefit more from seeing flops in position in non-bloated pots and outplaying our opponent deep.

Note: This can change depending on the table, sometimes I will 3bet to isolate if they are really bad and others are very likely to call behind.

Last edited by Wilverine; 07-31-2019 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Note
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote
07-31-2019 , 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilverine
This. Note: This can change depending on the table, sometimes I will 3bet to isolate if they are really bad and others are very likely to call behind.
I almost added this to my post. Now I don't need to.
Constructing pre flop 3 betting ranges Quote

      
m