I really didn't/don't have a 3-bet flat range. I used to always fold or 4b after I got 3-bet. Now I'm thinking I should have a 3b flat range but I have little clue on what it should be and why. This question is for 100BB. The reason I'm thinking about this now is because I think I've been getting exploited kind of hard by some aggro regs who know that although my hand is strong, it's not strong enough to be in my 4b range and I just fold. And also because some people are 3bing an extended value range or light.

I think KQ+ and TT+ is reasonable - just looking at what other people are flatting 3-bets with. But I don't know and don't understand the reasoning behind it.

Of course, we should flat wider in position so the range should be wider if we're IP, I understand that. I play $5/$10 live where people tend to 3b more and also flat 3bs more than lower stakes but I think the question is relevant for many stakes.

I'd like to discuss this. If there's an article or any good resource about this - please point me to it.

4bet or fold is fine
if you're getting 3bet often OOP tighten preflop range and pick spots to 4bet bluff

KQ is pretty bad to flat 3bet pots
some paired hands are ok to flat if super deep

Your range should be situationally dependent on position, stacksize, 3 bet size, opponent(s), and your image.

Lets say its 1 limper to you, you raise 55 otb, bb min 3 bets, limper calls, stacks are deep, are you really not set mining here?

On small point, if this is a common problem for you, then you are 3b too wide and too frequently.

Especially for 100bb effect stacks.

Why is your 4bet range static?

I dont mean to hijack this thread, but i have reflected some about 4 bet ranges the last days and have a question for you guys that i dont know how to truly answer.

In games with very tight 3 bet ranges and where people are able to fold JJ/QQ/AK preflop if they face a 4 bet, but will stackoff if we just flat their 3 bet with our KK/AA- is it +EV to not have a 4 betting valuerange at all in those kind of games? If our 4 bet get hands like AK and JJ to fold, isnt that a huge argument for just having a 3 bet flatting range and eliminate our 4 bet range? Or should we look for blocker combos to potenially 4 bet bluff to exploit peoples ability to make huge folds?

It's very important to distinguish between stakes ITT. Olaff plays 5/10 live which needs a 4-bet range that is elastic based on reads but pretty well-defined, whereas I feel like you (Gilmour) seem to be describing 1/2, in which I feel a 4-bet range is suicide unless it's AA/KK.

I would say 2/5 is closer to 1/2 in this respect, with exception of very read-specific situations, or when the big tournament is in town and you're against a bunch of bust-outs.

IMO 3-bet flat range = [mid-position 4bet range] but when you're in late position, minus AA/KK unless you have specific situational reasons to flat these. (rare)

I feel like this statement is impossible. KK should never be the bottom of our 4betting range. How is it possible that 4betting AK is "suicide" but 4betting KK isn't?

I regurarly play 1/3, mixed in with some portion of 2/5- but yeah, i agree it is important to distinguish between stakes in this debate-at least to have it in the back of our mind.

It's because I'm saying 95%+ of 1/2 players would only 3bet AA/KK/AK preflop, so what would your 4-bet range be there?
ETA I would add a small percentage of QQ to the above 3bet range, too. I played a lot of 1/2 live and still play some, and this has been my experience, as well as what I read here frequently from 1/2 players.

This whole topic is extremely villain dependent. If the stacks are deep enough and the 3-bet is small enough, you can flat with all pocket pairs (set mine). Against rec players, you can pretty much fold all Ax hands other than AK. V's post flop play is important as well. If it's someone who will stack off with AA every time, then you can flat hands like JTs if the 3-bet isn't too large.

Against regs, good players, and people who 3-bet more frequently, you can open up your calling range, especially if you're in position.

Olaff, I would dump KQ to a 3-bet. That hand so easily dominated by a 3-betting range. You're going to be up against AQ and AK way too often to profitably flat with KQ.

It depends on how deep the stacks are. If we're like 300 BBs deep, then we've got to 4-bet our aces. If someone's got less than 100 BBs, I like just flatting with aces. I actually can't remember a single hand in the last six months where there was a 4-bet and call pre-flop. Usually, the money just goes in pre.

4 bet bluffs should be non-existent in $1/2 games unless it's against a very specific V who we've got a great read on.

On a semi-related note......I saw a woman slow play aces four times yesterday and she cleaned up. She won a $200+ pot every hand. Making me re-think the "never slow play aces" maxim.

a) full ring or short handed?
b) in position or oop? I'm rarely ever flatting OOP so my EP raising range is weighted much more towards value. And i'm flatting a lot in position with almost my entire range. Unless I know they are likely to call 4-bets or 5-bets with their light 3-bet hands. Then i'll 4-bet the high end of my range.
c) You've been playing 5/10 for a while now... what do you see at showdown when you get 3-bet? You gotta have seen quite a few showdowns by now. What do they normally do when you 4-bet?

If players are exploiting you that means that they themselves are exploitable. You need to figure out what they are doing and adjust. So... what are they doing?

IMO this is about the level of question where you are probably best served by asking [paying] a private coach. The publicly shared knowledge on this type of question isn't very good.

For example you said you think you're being exploited but nobody even suggested that the first thing you do is come up with a minimum defending frequency.

In most low limit live games you can make exploitative folds to the vast majority of 3 bets, especially when you are oop. If you are up against someone who 3 bets a wider range than most players, suited broadways - KQs, AJs, etc, play well enough postflop.

If I were to ask this question, I'd start with describing some specific villain profiles, then ask what is an appropriate 3-bet flat range against these players.

OP specified 100BB deep. What 3bet size is small enough to flat with JTs if effective stacks are 100BB deep?

I usually* scoff at advice that suggests doing something "always" or "never".


*Did you notice how I said "usually" and not "always"?

Agreed. Very narrow and static 4b range and a general response to 3b of fold or 4b has done just fine at $2/$5 and $1/$2. At $5/$10 I feel it's just not cutting it. Hence this thread.

Completely confused as to what range 3b flat range you're suggesting. Could you please elaborate?

Let's say full ring. As for data, don't have it because I generally have been folding or 4bing and then they either GII (premiums) or fold

What do you think it is?

There's a thread in poker theory that is the nuts regarding everything 3-betting.

If it looks likely to be heads-up, I'd probably not be willing to call more than 10BB, and it depends on the opponent. If it looks likely to be multi-way, I may be willing to go higher.

Will search but a link would be awesome.

How do we arrive to these numbers?

You're very likely right...