villain is one of like 37 fish at the table. He plays way too many hands, opens very liberally pf doesn't really fold to 3bet can fold top pair but only if lots of pressure is applied to him. He doubled up a couple orbits prior to this pot but has leaked off some of those chips. He started the hand with 1500 hero covers.

preflop villain opens to 50 (standard) from EP, folds to hero who raises to $210 in the sb with QQ and villain pretty quickly calls

flop ($430) KJ4

hero?

i raise 5x pre but no big deal.

I check flop. I want his smaller heart to stay in. I want his Jx and whatever less to stay in. I dont mind him stabbing with a lot of lesser hands on flop just cause he may have the "oh he checked, i gotta bet syndrome".

Betting flop just narrows his range more than i prefer.

yeah I agree with flop check but looking for discussion on the plan going forward. c/c? c/r? if it's a c/c what are you doing on a 6 turn?

This really depends on if he's an aggrofish or passive fish. If he's the latter then I like gaybetting (like 180ish) just so that he could easily call with ten high one heart and no real plan what to do later. Seems like its not worth the risk of him checking back a bunch of hands he'd definitely peel a bet with; I'm assuming if hero checked then he'd be c/cing anyway so why not lead?

If he's active/spazzy postflop as well though then check is obv pretty standard.

I'd C/C flop and obviously going to find a way to get all the money in if another heart/Q comes on the turn/river.

If the turn bricks I'd probably C/C again and lead river if a heart/queen comes on river. If river bricks I'd just C/C even if he shoves. The only hand that he would bet flop/bet turn/shove river with for value would be exactly AK with Ah (KQ excluded as you have two queens) and I don't really see him betting all three streets with just a bare K10 or worse. Most likely he just has a pair with the Ah if he does fire each street so if turn and river brick I'd snap C/C a river shove by him.

He could have KJ I guess but it's just sooo hard to flop 2 pair in this game. So I'd C/C each street if turn/river brick and C/C flop lead turn/river if Q/heart comes.

I think I am in the donk bet flop camp. I don't see what checking accomplishes other than keeping the pot small. If a 4th heart comes, we all agree that we are getting stacked if he has the A, correct? In that case, a weak lead at least builds a pot if we do hit and might compel him to stack off without the Ace.

Am I missing something?

yeah I think you're missing a lot... start from the fact that you want to build the pot on the flop with this hand and whats on the board.

what hands you beat could villain vbet or bluff 2 streets with? that should tell you what to do on the turn.

btw c/r flop folds out everything you beat while get looked up by everything you dont.

Is it still called a donk bet since OP was last aggressor preflop?

I like c/c , c/c , blocking lead river unimproved.

Hmmm...this doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying the only way to build the pot on the flop is to c/r? I think leading accomplishes that much more often.

I like in rilievo's post, but I think I just CRAI with these stacks. I want to apply max pressure (with good equity) and allow him to maybe fold as much as AK. I also really don't want to give him any free cards with only a psb remaining.

i like CRAI on flop. If checked thru i bet turn.,

tbqh he's neither really. He's not overly aggro but he just overvalues hands and will crank of the aggression because he thinks it's good. I don't think he's the kind of fish that will just lay on the pot button here with like 76ss but he'd bet everything from like a ten high flush all the way to like red 7s.

I don't mind betting small here to induce calls from all kinds of weak hands. I feel like with him in particular the range of hands that he'd peel with but would check back with is somewhat small.

agree with this. I feel like the downside of taking such a pot-controlly passive line is that we lose out on a lot of value if he has a hand weaker than ours or if he just decides to take free-bees with the A.

i actually disagree with this. c/r the flop is virtually never folding out the A and it could potentially fold out KT, K9 etc.

I don't think it's called a donkbet if I was aggressor but who knows.

The problem I have with that line is that it contradicts itself. It's like we're going pot-control the whole way but then on the river what exactly is the purpose of the blocker besides just losing less if we're beat? I really think we're going to have a tough time getting him to call with weaker hands on the river. Grant it hands like AJx may call a river bet and def wouldn't have bet the river if we checked so we do gain value from those. But he's prob not betting a bare king for value so we end up losing more to those. If he was bluffing then we shut him out from doing that and lose value that way. IDK i just don't love it.

this was my thinking. I expected him to bet the A, all Jacks and all kings. I felt like he had enough behind to bet/fold if I shoved if he had a king (even AK unless its AK) so I felt I could fold out most hands that beat me, possibly fold out a hand that has close to even-money equity against me and get prob $500ish of value from hands I beat with no sweat. Anyways I check-bombed after he bet $300 and he showed a jack and folded pretty quickly. At first sight I second-guessed my plan because him showing a jack made me think twice about whether or not I got max value but I do think I like my line.

Yeah, I thought about it later and didnt like such a passive line after 3 betting pre. I think we should be c-betting a lot here including air as well as strong made hands and strong draws. I like bet, bet on this board.

If you expect him to bet a jack then c/c is the best line and it's really not that close. The only worry about not betting is that you lose value from jacks and middlish hearts. What does a crai even do? This doesn't sound like someone who is folding a king ever and maybe he doesn't fold the Ah but it's not like you're doing amazingly vs that anyway. If you check he'll bluff sometimes and he's value betting for you. Just c/c down and if he doesn't take the lead, then start betting.

This kind of thinking against someone who clearly doesn't have a great grasp of the game is unnecessary and often counter productive.

having played a fair amount in the past with the villain I felt as though he wouldn't get in everything lighter than AK and he doesn't understand the concept of pot control so he's never going to check back a jack here because his thought process with something like that is that he wants to find out where he's at.

As I said in one of my previous posts a crai folds out almost everything (yes I realize we do sacrifice value from a jack) but realistically a jack is the only thing that we potentially really could've gotten him to get in significantly more with that we have crushed. If he does have the A I really don't even care if he gets it in or not and if he does have the A then there are enough combo's of a pair with it or a gutter that scew it to where i'd prob rather have that hand fold and pickup the pot.

So I guess now knowing that he's folding everything <AK maybe you have a different view on a crai?

well whats the point of the thread since you so obviously know exactly how to play against him? lol

This makes more sense to me now as to why the cr was the best play. Against an unknown I would think we would c-bet this flop a lot, no? But against this player who will bet his entire range when checked to but fold almost all of his range to the cr bomb (other than AJx or AKx), this line makes more sense.

Thanks for the detail j.

ooooh, oooh, i know this guy...his name is durrr right?? i cant beleive hes playing this small!!! obv buuussstttooooo

Wait a second, so what's going on with the check raise on the flop? Is that for value or a bluff? Or are we merging on the flop? Sick.