lol @ not opening 53s from the CO

This is the CO, not utg

Really, do you lol at it? Where does it fall on the comedy scale, somewhere between the fourth season of Seinfeld and Scary Movie 2? Live poker is a rake fest, there's no need to bother with this open unless one of the blinds is a donk.

Thanks, this is exactly the point I was trying to arrive at earlier

ah ha. a response where both sides can be correct.

so when you have a strong read on one or both of blinds being live ones, stacks r deep enough, n perhaps btn being nitty passive, one can profitably open far wider(still debatable whether it can be atc, 53s, or some other cutoff in the % of combos)

op does state that the villain in the bb was a possible spot, but did not have a strong read as he was relatively new to the table.(also calls him unknown asian) op did not mention btn read. if opening from cutoff with 53s is part of some exploitive play, perhaps reads were not there in this particular hand to warrant an open with such a low percentile hand, unless you are over estimating your edge over the relative player pool of unknowns at such limits.

i guess it can be easy(maybe lazy?) to assume a big edge over relative unknowns at 5-10 when you're a big winner at these stakes, and it is probably accurate more times than not. however if it is not part of some super exploitive play on strong reads, at some point playing any two is gonna be -ev when up against unknowns.(i.e. opening 72o in co cannot be +ev vs unknowns. i think?)

i think we can agree that based on op, at that point in the hand, players were unknown. then the context of this debate should be geared toward what are ideal opening ranges in co when facing relative unknowns at 5-10 live. and since a generalized exploitive play does not seem optimal against unknowns, a gto approach does seem correct. (gto opening ranges from co?)

just what i gathered from all the various post itt. please discuss and enlighten me some more. ty

nice post btw, renton

1. This is the best thread we have had in quite some time with some really interesting debate, when there isn't poo flinging, although grudge matches are always awesome as a spectator.

2. I think this is a fold pre (for me), but I could be convinced that it is an open for a select few. I want to write a novel, but I think much of what I would say has been covered and I am functioning on almost zero sleep atm.

The problem is that we won't ever build up a sample size to prove it one way or another.

There are stronger combos we should be opening (imo) that are still in a massive opening range 40%+.

3. As played, fold river.

You have position with a hand that is tricky and unexpected. The value of position alone makes this a raise, let alone the fact that it's suited and if u hit trip 5s or 3s you almost always have the best hand.

this has to be a level^^^

All he actually stated was that villain had been aggro. I think with only the given information that this is a pretty tough live game and he's an older asian guy sitting on a full stack who's been aggro, odds are more likely than not he's a decent player, and that the other unknowns were decent players also.

Clearly if the button is nitty or if either of the blinds are very passive nits or fishes, 53s is an open from the CO.

***

To give my two cents about GTO, I think I'm reasonably well-positioned to guess at what that would be, given most of my play is in tough online cash games. I think we can establish a few things about 53s that people can generally agree on:

1) It has no relevant blockers to BU, SB, or BB's coldcalling or 3-betting ranges. In fact, it actually has anti-blockers; they are more likely to have hands worth defending than if we had Q7s or J6s.

2) It, generally speaking, cannot defend against a reraise of a decent size with only 1500 behind. Even if it could, it would be for such a tiny profit that we might as well consider the outcome of being 3-bet to equal to about -$35.

3) When any of the three opponents defends by coldcalling, 53s is a hand that primarily makes its money from bluffing and semibluffing postflop. Aside from boards that give us trips or a straight, which are quite rare, we will not be putting a lot of money in dominating hand over hand encounters. Small flushes and bottom two pairs have only limited value and will run into bigger hands quite often. Additionally, the pairs 53s flops will often be difficult to show down profitably.

Many of the good players in the games I play open the hand, but it is the stone bottom of their opening range. Opening ranges from the cutoff in tough games generally are between 27% and 32%. A 30% opening range looks something like this:



I should also note that GTO-approaching play probably has you opening less than 3bb from the CO. I think the open is a lot more profitable with 53s if he had made it 25. The opening range must narrow as the open size increases, though I cannot make a judgement as to whether 53s should be included in the narrowed range. There's a reasonable argument to suggest that you should keep hands like 53s that flop polarized equity and fold hands like A9o instead.

***

As for this real life hand, I think I'd open the hand if the BU was nitty and the blinds were nitty, again for 20-25. I'd open the hand if either of the blinds was a confirmed donk, probably for 35. I'd fold the hand with a donk on the button, for reasons which should be clear by now. The hand benefits from postflop bluffing and semibluffing, getting called in position by a 35% vpiping donk who doesn't fold to barrels often enough is going to hurt the ability to profitably open the hand.

If the button and blinds were generally loose like in most live games, but with decent sticky opponents, I believe the hand is a fold because you just don't flop profitable situations often enough, nor do you win the blinds outright often enough. I think 53s type hands suffer under these conditions, and I'd honestly sooner open a hand like Q9o or something.

I think you need to also consider the rake into your preflop decisions. Your risking $35 to win $13 in blinds. Commerce takes $2 even without a flop I believe. If there is a flop. Rake is like $5-6? This makes it more -ev.

lol they take rake before the flop? case closed

Sorry to derail what has been a great discussion on the merits of opening 35ss in the CO, but I wonder why u didn't raise the turn when you binked your two pair? Given all the Top pair and/or diamond draws in villain's range, it doesn't seem like a WA/WB spot simply because he could have 67 or 44? Am I missing something?

awesome post renton! thx for moving the discussion forward. good stuff.

yea l.a. rake is a joke. shouldn't be profitable if not for all the bad players.

although i haven't played w/ him a lot, my read on him was that he was an aggro player that would be capable (and willing) to bluff 3 streets. most of the players in this pool wouldn't fit this description and i would have def raised turn against a lot of them knowing if they were bluffing/semibluffing flop and turn if they bricked river they would almost always shut down. w/ him though i thought different.

his turn sizing is really important just b/c of how big of a bet it is. i thought it was skewed towards big made hands that are way ahead of me (top pair w/ diamonds maybe the only exception) or semi bluffs (more likely semi bluffs due to the large size) so i thought w/ position i could call down most rivers that bricked and comfortably fold to most diamond rivers against him. i thought w/ a turn call i could also get him to value own himself against me on rivers w/ hands like AQ/KQ since my hand just looks like 1 pair at best if i already have a made hand. and if river bricked and he checked i can bet large and he might pay me off w/ just a Q if he took this line w/ a Q w/ diamonds/AQ/KQ and level himself into thinking i missed the draw. also me being in position was a huge factor in my decision to just call turn.

a lot of other reasons too but i think these were the main ones i was thinking at the time.

Thx, that's a great explanation. A real good example of how a top player thinks in these spots in order to maximize expected win instead of worrying about losing the pot which may cause a sub-optimal decision as it would have here given his holding. He would have had no choice but to bluff most rivers and just happened to hit his gutter instead. If/when I ever play seriously again, I need to start thinking more like this.

Of course it's not a level.

Let me help you out. When the flop comes with 2 tens, 2 jacks, 2 queens, etc., people are going to play cautiously if they don't have trips+.

If the flop, however, comes with 2 5s or 2 3s, people just ignore those cards.

Understand?

Pre has to be a fold vs this opponent. Maybe OP is good enough to default open 53s here in a typical commerce 5/10 game profitably.

My issue is that this specific villain is (overly?) aggro which is exactly what I don't want when I'm opening exploitively wide. Villain's default play style is a correct exploitive adjustment vs our wide opening range.

So even from a purely exploitive rather than GTO standpoint, it really doesn't add up.

And fyi, I'd rather play 53s vs a pro any day than vs a fish.

Cmon guys, no need to "NVG" what has been a great thread with a lot of strong and solid opinions. We can agree to disagree cordially.

I think the main thing to remember is that whether to open 53s in this spot vs this villain is player dependent and cannot be proven one way or the other by math or other means (IMO). For some (say DGAF, jloc, etc.) , this may be a very +EV open; for others (like me, ldo), it is probably a big long term loser without very specific game dynamics.

That is what makes this game so interesting....there is rarely, if ever, a slam dunk correct play pre-flop in a cash game.

Then you simply aren't playing well, tbh. It would take VERY specific table dynamics for 53s NOT to be a std open. For example, a bunch of extremely agro regs left to act.

And tbh, it's much less EV for a spewtard reg to open 53s than for a nitty reg to do so. Your statement should be reversed

You are right, I don't play all that well as I thought my post alluded. However, your statement above makes huge assumptions about how said nitty reg or spewtard reg play post flop.

The main point was that there are very few situations where one move is the best move preflop. Both of your posts actually further the point I was trying to make.

This is an extremely incorrect statement. There really aren't many borderline hands.

Even with a hand like 53s, it's almost always a open from the cut off. Just because you're not profitable with it doesn't mean it's not an open...learn to be profitable with it.

can you post your CO opening range (and bet sizing), I am curious. assume normal 5/10 game conditions

Too lazy, but 53s is definitely not at the bottom of the range.

I'd say the worst hand I open is 36s, maybe 37s depending on players

And I'd prob open 53o as well (although that's at the bottom)