Had a pretty woeful session last night, was card dead for most of it and anything i did have i had to raise/fold due to completely bricking the flop.

For the first time ever i came up against a table where 4 of them were 'reg' loose aggro players, raising 20x pre, who probably played higher, and the game was a bit of a lark around to them. The other half were limpy cally types

I had no idea how to play middling cards such as AJs, KQs, AQo etc. Raising was either getting calls from pretty much everyone and then i couldn't bring myself to fire a cbet into 5 people, or i was getting reraised by the loose aggro players with awkward stack size in front of me.

Eg, i'm covered, sitting with £85, with AQs. I raise to £15 pre to try and reduce the field. I get 3 callers, whiff the flop and have to fold. Just burning money imo.

I thought about shortstacking and just limp/shoving with these hands cause i'd be ahead of their ranges, but then i'm just losing value. I can't really think of a way to combat this because of the presence of said aggrofishies.

Any advice on how to combat terrible loose aggro, higher-playing 'regs'? Bet huge pre, shove any flop with premiums?

It got to the stage where even 99 etc were hard to play because it was costing like 15% of my stack to even see a flop. And then you miss and have to fold. And if you just open shove you're probably getting called by at least 2 players.

I was up against one with ATs stack is £70, raise to £10 pre. He calls.
Flop A2Kr. I fire £18. He calls.
Turn 4 completing rainbow.
I shove £42 and he literally instasnaps, almost putting in before i've even bet, and he turns over KJ and rivers his K.

Said donk then proceeds to talk strategy and also tries to tell people what they've got and tells them to fold because they have '**** all on the flop anyway'. These people just don't realise how terrible they are but always seem to come up smelling of roses.

So they should be easy to crush but i have a hard time with raise sizing etc seeing as i'm buying in for 100bb and the preflop raise is usually at least 20bb.

Had a similar situation a few nights ago, without the carddeadedness. I moved seats when i had the chance so I had two aggro's to my left and one of the passive guys to my right. It worked out great, instead of raising my upper range speculative hands, i'd just overlimp and flat the raise being last to act. I ended up slowplaying more than usual, but it worked out well in this case. Figured, why bet my hands when someone else would do it for me.

I was in this position the whole time!

I had one sucker to my left, then those 4 aggro fish, then 3 other limpys.

I also made one terrible fold which i'm still kicking myself about because it woulda put me from stuck big to a huge winner.

Maybe i just need to ante up and grow some balls and just embrace the variance with my limited bankroll lol.

I've been in similar situations...if you aren't comfortable with who you are playing against (it happens), table change or leave altogether.

if the above isn't an option for you and you don't want to expand your bankroll/opening range, then tighten up, playing only premium hands and bet them hard when you have something. You can play fit or fold against these aggressive types and they'll pay you off more often than not when you hit a decent piece of the flop with AK, etc. (sounds like they are betting any and every flop type) and you will lose minimally when you don't. the A 10 hand you lost is just variance and you usually will win there, you get the idea. unfortunately if you are card dead it will seem like a long night but it only takes a couple of hits to have a great night at a table like this.

Cheers to those who responded. Confidence is back and i'm ready for a good session tonight.

if they're raising 20x pre there should be tons of opportunity to shove those hands like AQ and AJ, especially if those 20x opens are getting callers

I'm assuming they're raising that big pretty wide?

Also if you're raising AQ and are getting called by 4-5 people c/fing when you miss isn't exploitable. If you're heads-up or even 3 ways it is, but that doesn't mean you have to cbet if you miss. Against these sorts of opponents who are calling with any piece of the flop, cbetting would be a huge mistake as you only fold out worse hands. So you have to know how they play postflop. Some loose players will check/call down with anything less than top pair, so best strategy is just to check until you hit TP. Some will bet any piece of the board, so just c/f and feel good.

If villain ever bluffs postflop then you're gonna have to nut up and start making some calls with ace-high. After all if vil has nothing, your nothing beats his. You really need some good postflop reads though - a lot of players for example will cbet flop all the time and then just give up if called so you can call flop planning to fold to a bet on a later street. Just for example. I can't list every possible line.

to summarize
1. pay attention
2. find how vil plays postflop if he's aggro, observe things like does he fire multiple barrels, how does he size his bluffs/monsters/TP/2nd-3rd pair (a surprising amount of players will size all four of those differently), what lines does he take for value, what lines does he take as bluffs
3. exploit

Thanks man, solid advice.

I was check folding when i missed, but then that made me think 'why the **** am i pumping it up so much pre, when i can make it 4x and then check/fold'. I think raising to like 20bigs pre with the intention of check folding when i miss is a mistake. Felt like one anyway haha.

I've come up against this a few times (it sucks!)

There's a few things I try that might help you. These are just my thoughts and might not work for you but hope something helps

First thing is that you just have to abandon all hope of seeing a lot of flops with nice hands like 89s and 33. Hands that need implied odds to work cannot be played in this game.

Second thing is remember you will get paid on your monsters in the long run. If someone is snap calling you with 2nd pair type hands and raising 20x, that's great for when you flop big, or look down at kings. limp re-raising can be a great play here. Get QQ in early position, limp, one fish raises 15x, 3 call, you shove, somone spite calls you. Your crushing them in a heads up pot with added value from dumbass callers. It feels so exploitable and stupid to limp shove aces etc, and if everyone limps behind you it sucks, but it can be a profitable way to play. Might even allow more limping to happen later on.

Third thing is be super aggro with some hands that you might useually play more catiously, 99 for instance. This is a limp shove hand I think. If you limp and get to see a flop, awesome, set mine or i guess bet/shove if it's an overpair. If you get raised the useual 15x and 3 call, shove. You probably end up at worst with a flip, standing to way more than double your money with the extra callers putting in a freeroll of 30BB. Pairs have about 4% equity over two overs as well so it's a flip in your favour even without the dead money. You will also get werid calls from A9,Axs, 88/77, I saw a guy call off his stack with 27 once because he 'felt it.'

Last, AQ/AJ/KQ/AK and stuff, it's frustrating. There is an argument for limp shoving these but I think you have the odds to see flops even if it's for 15% of your stack. When you hit with AQ etc against these morons you are probably getting stacks in, maybe with two of them. It can drive you insane not hitting flops but you should be getting a top pair hand almost every 3 flops with AQ so be patiant and rake it in.

I try to avoid games like this useually because I think they are high variance. If I'm sitting at 1/2 and it's being played like 5/10 I would rather play elsewhere. but, that does not mean these games cannot be profitable.

Fish can always be exploited, hope this gave you some ideas.

Thanks man, given me a bit more to think about, very helpful post.

About to head down in about 45 mins so hopefully i can do some crushing tonight

Ok I'll give you a little piece of advice.

Dont get too wrapped up in your own ego.

The guy made a terrible play and sucked out on you, thats fine. Now hes talking strategy and he thinks he's playing profitably/well. I'm guessing this is making you see red and you might be tempted to attack him verbally or show him you are better or a combination of those things.

I know its tough but its better to fold without showing and say "nice hand". You have to sit there whilst other players say to the villain "I think you had him all the way" ect..... You need not engage in strategy talk because you are confident in what you did !

If I feel like my ego is kicking in or im getting frustrated by others seemingly bad plays/suckouts and I react in a way that panders to that then I either take a long break or I go home.

People who over estimate there skill set/talk alot of strategy/use big words eg. value own myself (heard this tonight) are often times your bread and butter. These are the very types who tilt the hardest/are the most susceptible to fancy play syndrome and let you know exactly what they are thinking. Dont deny yourself that fundamental edge and dont engage in battles of the ego.

All you can really do on these supper laggy tables is get the money in when you are most likely good (obviously its harder to tell when everyones showing up with atc). If the variance is too much move tables or go home would be my advice.

The best strat against these fish is to get position, first of all. But if you can't, play a primarily post flop game. What I mean is raise and keep the pot small PF (unless you have QQ-AA ldo), and then vbet the **** out of your made hands. These type of players are the ones that believe "anything can happen after the flop". So regardless of SPR, PFR size, or any other variable, they have to see a flop. So why bloat the pot PF when their range is 80% of the deck and you have no idea where you stand post flop?

These games are amazingly profitable, but they are also very scary.

First of all keep in mind what their ranges look like when they call your bets.

If 3 or 4 players are calling your raise, then they have to be calling with ranges over 30%....i

Try to construct a 33% range some time...and then see how many hands you dominate with a hand like AQ when an A or a Q hits and hell if they will call you with second pair yahoo. Its not burning money when you raise and only continue when you hit...its printing money (though you may have to lend it to them for a little first).

Second...if your like most of us its scary to be forced to gamble all the time. Ed Miller has two suggestions for offsetting this fear.

Buy in short 50 60 bb works well for me. Its just easier to get it in with these type stacks...and the bad beats don't hurt as much. Also when they call 2% of the effective stacks with K8o they are making a small mistake...when they do it for 15% of their stack it is a huge mistake and one that even the best players can't overcome with post flop play.

Whenever I sit at a table I buy in for 150...if it turns out to be wild and wolly I let it drop down to around 125 to 100. Most of the time I add on within 5 or 6 hands to 200 and many games I cap off to 300 after a round or two. But I start a bit short just in case.

The second suggestion Ed makes is too have a lot of rebuys in your pocket. It just makes it easier to get all in (or put 15% of your stack in a few times) and then peel off some more money. Keeps the fear based mistakes down.


And here's a free article by Ed to explain a little bit more.
http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...ild-games.html