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Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep?

06-07-2019 , 10:35 AM
Quick update to answer some questions

V2 does not 3b AK and doesn’t even raise pre with it. I don’t think he 3bets QQ either
V2 will also give me his stack on pretty much any runout with a T otf. The board could be bone dry and I could still raise/gii with him for 400bbs
V1 in the hand is actually my brother so if I just cold call a 3b from v2 he knows that Im strong and I believe he only puts in the 4b with AA, calls with KK-JJ and maybe folds everything else. Didn’t want people knowing v1 was my brother as to not bias responses

Last edited by SBussie; 06-07-2019 at 10:41 AM.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 10:38 AM
Definitely call.

(I have the same problem posting hands that my husband is in, although we play the same against each other as against everyone else.)
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Definitely call.

(I have the same problem posting hands that my husband is in, although we play the same against each other as against everyone else.)
That’s just like my brother and I. Some of the biggest 1/2 pots I’ve ever played have been against him
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgalosk
I'm legitimately shocked to hear people advocate for folding. We are super deep against an OMC who is playing his hand face up and will punt off 500bbs if we hit our set. If V1 reraises, that sucks but so be it.

Call the $50. When you don't spike a T on the flop just fold to his $250 flop overbet or whatever stupid thing he does. Poker is easy when you know what the other person is holding.
I was actually forgetting that this is a 1/2 game and not a 2/5 game.
But if Minatorr thinks fold is reasonable then I can’t be too far off regardless.
This is a minimal +EV spot.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
There actually is cuz you can beat more of his value range with a 4-liner straight. Not that it’ll happen often.
Well if we're going to factor a 4-liner straight into the equation, then 77 is better than TT because villain won't have any blockers to any straight possible.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 12:27 PM
I think it's a fold.

First guy reraises some of the time.

Old guy ain't stacking off with KK on A high boards / etc. when we flop our set.

With the SPR likely being 5 with the other coming along, my guess is the old guy will stack off every time with an overpair. However, even when we flop our set we're still going to lose our stack about ~10% of the time (oversetted on flop or by the river, or he runner runners a flush/straight).

Getting about 17:1 here, it's just pretty thin all things considered.

GimoG
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
I think it's a fold.

First guy reraises some of the time.

Old guy ain't stacking off with KK on A high boards / etc. when we flop our set.

With the SPR likely being 5 with the other coming along, my guess is the old guy will stack off every time with an overpair. However, even when we flop our set we're still going to lose our stack about ~10% of the time (oversetted on flop or by the river, or he runner runners a flush/straight).

Getting about 17:1 here, it's just pretty thin all things considered.

GimoG
OP makes it pretty clear a few posts above that V WILL stack off when he spikes a 10. Regardless of board texture or runout.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 12:55 PM
This is the only way you're going to get your hands on those crusty old chips.
Unless you're just going to treat him as an empty seat, take one for the team and call.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
Well if we're going to factor a 4-liner straight into the equation, then 77 is better than TT because villain won't have any blockers to any straight possible.
Missed the point
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgalosk
OP makes it pretty clear a few posts above that V WILL stack off when he spikes a 10. Regardless of board texture or runout.
OP used the term "pretty much", which I'm assuming is leaving room for the case of not hurp durping in stacks with KK on A high boards / QQ on A/K high boards (which ain't like a super rare occurrence either). I'll leave it up to OP to clarify if that isn't the case.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
OP used the term "pretty much", which I'm assuming is leaving room for the case of not hurp durping in stacks with KK on A high boards / QQ on A/K high boards (which ain't like a super rare occurrence either). I'll leave it up to OP to clarify if that isn't the case.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Yes you’re right about him playing cautiously on A high flops with KK, fwiw I don’t think he even has QQ here in this spot. I was more talking about him 100% stacking off if the board is safe according to him, which is his standard type of play with big pp
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBussie
Yes you’re right about him playing cautiously on A high flops with KK, fwiw I don’t think he even has QQ here in this spot. I was more talking about him 100% stacking off if the board is safe according to him, which is his standard type of play with big pp
Yeah, I mean I totally agree this guy is going to stack off every single time on T high flops. But (a) we still lose ~10% of the time when that happens, (b) Ace high flops when holding KK happen at a decent rate, and (c) dude behind still reraises every so often.

Gacallisverymehforthesereasons,imoG
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 03:59 PM
One thing I'm curious about, were you able to observe how OMC built his stack?
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgalosk
There's no difference between 22-QQ in this situation imo.
There isn't a huge difference, but if the preflop call is close between call/fold, you'd definitely fold 22-66. We can get oversetted by the PFR if he decides to flat a PP (rare but it drags down our EV slightly), and 22-44 make less straights than 55-QQ (again, unlikely but also drags down our EV slightly). Also very rarely we call with 1010-QQ, the 3-bettor has AK and checks it down and we win. Or we check it down vs PFR's lower PP and we win at SD. So yeah, 22-99 is definitely not the same as 1010-QQ in this "close" spot. Calling 22-44 is definitely a huge leak in this spot.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr
There isn't a huge difference, but if the preflop call is close between call/fold, you'd definitely fold 22-66. We can get oversetted by the PFR if he decides to flat a PP (rare but it drags down our EV slightly), and 22-44 make less straights than 55-QQ (again, unlikely but also drags down our EV slightly). Also very rarely we call with 1010-QQ, the 3-bettor has AK and checks it down and we win. Or we check it down vs PFR's lower PP and we win at SD. So yeah, 22-99 is definitely not the same as 1010-QQ in this "close" spot. Calling 22-44 is definitely a huge leak in this spot.
If the flatter (or anyone else coming along in the hand) isn't a complete moran, then getting oversetted with the small sets, while admittedly rare, should still be a very large worry because if any non-moran (other than the raiser) is willing to get in stacks postflop there's simply a very good chance that is what has happened. Had this happen last session out where there was en EP preflop raiser, an ok flatter, I nit fold 55 on the Button cuz blinds ain't morans (and stacks ain't great, although the bigger they are the more RIO there are anyways), and BB flats. BB gets in all his chips postflop against preflop raiser on Q65r, and of course I would have lost all my stack to his 66. Again, while rare, against a lotta opponents that's the only time you're getting in stacks here postflop against a flatter.

Obviously game dependent. There certainly was a time where with a flopped set of deuces I could barely contain my drool / excitement if someone wanted to move towards playing for stacks, whereas now I mostly just get sick to my stomach if that happens.

GthemoreIplay,themoreIthink66-mightactuallybeunplayableG
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 05:12 PM
I call because we have been explicitly told OMC believes its still the 20th century in poker and will stack off with overpairs even on dangerous boards. Sucks if V1 comes back over the top but what is he going to do that with? I 4bet this OMC with exactly AA so what are we worried about here?
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 06:47 PM
^ I think V1 went full ****** and 4bet jammed AKo & got felted and OP wants to know if he could have saved 50 bucks.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 07:41 PM
Time for results

Seems that the majority is leaning towards a call pre and not continuing unless I obviously hit a set, or maybe peel once with a gutter depending on the price.
Hero calls $50 and V1 folds.

Flop: ($110) Q 6 2r
V2 bets $65 and hero folds
V2 proudly flips over 33 and says that’s the only way I could win with that hand. I’ve been playing with him every weekend for almost a year now and I’ve never witnessed him doing anything remotely close to something like this. All the other regs at the table were in shock. Owned by an OMC
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBussie
Time for results

Seems that the majority is leaning towards a call pre and not continuing unless I obviously hit a set, or maybe peel once with a gutter depending on the price.
Hero calls $50 and V1 folds.

Flop: ($110) Q 6 2r
V2 bets $65 and hero folds
V2 proudly flips over 33 and says that’s the only way I could win with that hand. I’ve been playing with him every weekend for almost a year now and I’ve never witnessed him doing anything remotely close to something like this. All the other regs at the table were in shock. Owned by an OMC
I wouldn't feel bad at all. Ed Miller in one of his books made the point that most 1/2 are not bluffing at anywhere near the frequency that trying to pick them off makes sense. Let them have their bluffs is the right thing unless you have a hecka read.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 11:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
There actually is cuz you can beat more of his value range with a 4-liner straight. Not that it’ll happen often.
How many extra percentage points is this? Just curious.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-07-2019 , 11:43 PM
The 33 show is actually cute. I've seen this play numerous times but always fail to recognize it, if it can even be recognized. UTG raises, 2 calls, player in MP 3bet jams 75 BB's, everyone folds, MP proudly turns over 88 or any other vulnerable PP with the exact same logic as your OMC "I had to protect my hand". Risking $375 to win $45 rather than the other way around. Their entire view on poker is winning pots and not stacks.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-10-2019 , 10:50 AM
I was already folding in the first place, but plays like this make it an even easier fold now, as obviously AK is now easily in his range (where he'll win with a flop cbet when we both whiff and rarely pay off when we hit).

GwerarelyhavenearlytheIOwethinkwedo,imoG
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-10-2019 , 11:17 AM
GG - poker is about making adjustments as you acquire new info, but stick to your paint by numbers approach it's taken you far.
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-10-2019 , 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
GG - poker is about making adjustments as you acquire new info, but stick to your paint by numbers approach it's taken you far.
I realize we don't have the extra info of this hand to put preflop into an even more trivial fold spot. But it's still a fold even with our default OMC read for reasons I've already pointed out, imo.

Gimo,butyoucandowhateveryouwantG
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote
06-10-2019 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
I realize we don't have the extra info of this hand to put preflop into an even more trivial fold spot. But it's still a fold even with our default OMC read for reasons I've already pointed out, imo.

Gimo,butyoucandowhateveryouwantG
While I didn’t have the info that he randomly decides to go nuts with small pps, I do/did have the info on what he does with AK nearly 100% of the time. He doesn’t raise pre with it, he doesn’t 3bet with it. If the flop comes A/K high and he has called a raise pre, he usually leads big if there’s a scary board or just x/rs huge to prevent getting drawn out. In this spot I was 100% sure this was AA/KK as I’ve logged countless hours with him and he has never gotten out of line like he did here
Cold call a 3b IP of value heavy OMC 400bbs deep? Quote

      
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