I ran my numbers for April and this is what I have.

Over the last 3600 hands I have averaged 6.7bb/hr at 2/5 after a few multi session heaters and many less than stellar resulting ones as well. In speaking with others whom I play with regularly who are succcessful over the long term, this seems to be about average.

My average over the 1st qtr of the year was lower (5.9bb/hr)

My advice is if you are serious about your game and long term success that you keep good track of your win/loss raio. Otherwise it's very easy to fool yourself about your long term viability.

I have seen MANY players who believe they are winning but really have no idea that they are slowly bleeding themselves and their bankrolls to death.

Just curious how did you figure out you played 3600 hands exactly. Are you keeping track of every hand dealt or are you just averaging like 30 hands per hour?

Clocked in 163.6 (I keep close track of time played) hours and I used 22hands an hour. I figure thats about what I'm seeing when you account for missed hands for cig and restroom breaks. I guess if I really got down to it I should subtract those breaks from the hrs played but thats more effort than necessary. I note when I sit and when I cash out.

I play a standard 15/10 tag game live and I have AT LEAST one +6BI night a month in my local 1-2 game. My all time records are +9 BI's and I have done this twice in two years. I don't think it would be a stretch for a better player than myself (i am a tagfish) to crush my results. I think game selection is the most important factor.

I know of, and have played with, a couple of SDCs in AC. This is exactly where their strength lies. Reading the players and table. Lots of betting - but rarely (relative to the number of hands played, at any rate) a showdown.

The players that I'm thinking of (and there are only 2 or 3 that I put into this category) do MUCH better than that. I don't know what their hourly rate is, but they crush the 1/2 and 1/3 NLHE games for much more than $20 an hour. Not uncommon for them to book $1,000+ a session. Wish I knew how to do that - my win rate is not even within shouting distance of what these guys do.

Hand, shmand - they play position and players. Cards (literally, in most cases) don't matter.

Yup. Example. 1 SDC who I have a huge amount of respect for raised something like 4 hands in a row, the last being from UTG+1. He won them all. Then, someone at the table asked "Don't you know about playing position?" The response was something along the lines of: "I've heard of that." - followed by an UTG raise and takedown.

Lee

amazing post
Will def read, my biggest problem with live game is adjusting to donk play. Sounds ******ed but i get busto by lucky donks all the time.

Sorry, Lee, but I gotta call BS on this. Perhaps you see them win big$$, but don't see the days like I had on Sat when I ran into hand after hand where I was second best no matter what it was, from AA to QTs on the button with 18 outs. Anybody who can crush a game for much more than $20/hour has the skills to play 2/5 and up, unless they have tilt or bankroll problems.

Imagine Kobe in a high school pickup game for money. It doesn't make any sense.

I've played with and against too many LAGs. Unless they have world-class hand reading skills, they don't do any better than I do while playing five times as many hands, since they lose most of them. They have enormous swings, and often go home with less money than they came in with. If they have those world-class hand-reading skills, then what are they doing in a game that the rake makes LAG play far less profitable?

Just because it's more fun, doesn't mean it's more profitable.

Which city are these games in?

Have you played any more with this style? If so, how has it worked out for you?

i turned 21 march 31, have basically broken even, and if you count gas, and food, have prolly lost, this post has helped i think, i still find myself playing too loose, i also think im going to get one of those pitch counter things for baseball and count my hands. THis post has helped alot thank you.

Live im a 2-5 break even player, and a losing 1-3 player

online i play 8 tables of 1-2 lol go figure, i just cant seem to crack the code of live poker lol

yea one thing i learned was that online and live are 2 different beasts. yea the game is the same the players and dynamics arent. there is a transition period if you are not used to switching between playing live and online a lot.

i just need some more experience i think, im going to be playing a local club, htey play 1-2 NL and 1-2 PLO, that should prolly help me, the PLO they play at my casino is a really big game i wanna get in, but right now i dont have the BR for it

nit it up. trust me. try to show a bluff and get a loose image.

I figured I'd bump this thread and add on. I don't know that you can simply say bad live players don't bet large enough. Many don't, but bad live players seem to fall into a few different categories on bet sizing at least some of which bet too large. I'm no expert but, here are a couple of betting categories I have seen . . . interested to hear if others see these types &/or others.

(1) Absolute Dollar Value (ADV): This player judges the size of the bet almost solely on how much that $ amount means/feels to him. If $50 seems like a lot of money to them, it's a big bet regardless of whether the pot is $50 or $500. The less fishy of this group may make some adjustments to pot size but usually stay anchored near their comfort zone. If a bet falls below their threshold, they will call it if they have a hand that isn't very obv beaten. The key to playing ADV's is to determine what their threshold is. As long as you stay in their comfort zone they will pay you off holding hands like middle pair. If THEY lead with something more than your observed threshold you can be sure they have no less than the absolute nuts. They'll call over the threshold with 2nd-3rd nut but will never raise since they suspect you have top nut. Obv, don't bluff an ADV for an amount that is near their comfort zone. If they are leading don't think they don't have a hand just because they are betting small vs. pot size. They will bet/call their threshold on all three streets with hands like two pair and low sets. It can be frustrating when they show you a set (without a single raise) and will probably tell you "I thought you had a bigger set." On the plus side, you are never in danger of being stacked by one of these guys and they are fish-friendly. You will see profitable ADV's who only play real [but skewed] value and love to bluff catch. They just want to grind out a steady low variance profit courtesy of the drunks and calling stations. They are great to play with since they never stack the fish (leaving $$$ for you) and can be really helpful in building big pots when you want them.

(2) OverBet Maniac (OBM): Sometimes it's just too fun to say "all-in." OBM's love the thrill of making someone fold and will hammer the pot whenever they have something they want to play. Their goal doesn't appear to be profit but instead domination of the enemy. If you flat them, they'll come back on the next street with a larger bet and will happily put themselves all-in with top pair or even AK that didn't connect. They will also make huge bets with overpairs and can never seem to lay them down. Yeah, sometimes they will show up with a monster . . . it's just a crap shoot. These guys will frustrate you by blowing all the calling stations out of the water before they can put their money in. They usually play tighter than the typical maniac . . . but they don't know when to lay down a good preflop hand that never connected.

(3) Crusty Old Set Miner: These old farts are really easy to spot since they practically sit down at the table with a helmet and head lamp. They almost never raise pre, will grumble and call your raise then insta fold the flop. They are kind of ADV in that they seem to have some fixed number in their heads that qualifies as a reasonable price to see a flop with any PP regardless of position. They'll play the premium hands too, but they seem to have stopped learning poker at the "sets are good" stage. The only time you get their money is pre-flop or if you happen to catch a bigger set or straight. They will never EVER lay down a set unless there's a flush on the board or maybe a really obvious straight . . . and when they do, you know you'll hear a steady stream of bitching about how lucky you are. They'll also grumble when you fold . . . "I finally got a hand and I can't get any action." So, you just raise them pre right up to their $ limit then bet any flop. If they are betting/calling post flop, they hit the set . . . it's that simple. I guess it's a pretty easy formula and maybe it is +EV against the tourists and drunks. I always picture someone running a boiler room of pensioners with nothing else to do with their time.

Sweet post.

If there is no magic answer there can be no magic question.

What if there's no magic 8-ball?

Sometimes you don't have a choice in what to play in the live environment...as an example, this past weekend in Reno, ALL that was running was a $1-2 game. Occasionally they got a second table running and I saw a third open up once or twice.

There was definitely money to be made there, although some of the games definitely fit into the "fasten your seatbelt" variety.

sometimes fun takes precedence...and it never hurts to remind yourself about the caliber of player you see in so many tournaments. In the course of that reminder, you pocket a handful of buy-ins...seems like a win-win.

Great thread and great site! First post obviously.

The last few pages has been talking about a good table versus bad table, table changes etc.

What is an ideal makeup for a good table at 1/2 or 2/5? Mostly playing in Southern Florida.

this would make a great sit-com....

bump.

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I really don't know why this thread isn't stickied... It's absolute gold. Thanks OP.