One other thing I wanted to add. Just because you are playing against live donkeys, do not underestimate the value of position. A hand that may be worth playing out of position in a 4-5 way pot will often not be worth playing out of position heads up. If you get the attitude that "everyone is so bad I will win if I play with this hand", you probably will not. I have won many pots mainly because i was in position, but play out of position with junk hands too often, even against donkeys, and you will expose yourself to the donkeys kick.

Well you're just getting started. I'm sure you will make more per hour in the future as you get better and figure out the regular players.

Thanks, I'd like to think thats doable. I'm not sure I would like to call myself a "Donkey Crusher" lol. I try not to get too full of myself, because if you think you are invincible you are probably not. I have seen a huge number of weaknesses in my play and have been really working on being honest with myself about what I need to improve on.
In fact, I was horrified to discover I had a few "weak tight" tendancies a while back, when reading David Sklanskys " No Limit Holdem Theory and Practice."
I have made some changes and seen some improvements in my play as a result of that, which is very encouraging.

Another thing I've noticed as I have become more serious about poker is that anyone can be good at anything in life, if they are willing to put in the work.
If you come upon a difficult or frightening situation in life which could be beneficial in the long run, but back away from it as a result of the hard work it would take, you will eventually realize it will make you "Ok" at everything and good at nothing, as I did. I've come to realize that sucessful people in life, no matter what they do, are almost always successful because they are willing to work hard at whatever they do, constantly striving for self improvement.

Rainfall, your missing a lot in your live strategy. Dont pound donks too heavy, too often without cards to back it up. Donks like to call. I dont care if your in position, you will blow a lot of money if you think only position matters. Live is so radically different from the internet you could go broke to "Donkeys" in no time at all. If you bluff too much someone will eventually trap you.

Also, a great point from Tony Guerrera' "Killer Poker By The Numbers."
Assuming that your opponents will fold 100% of the time to a continuation bet if they do not pair the board on the flop, a 2/3 pot Cbet shows a large profit heads up, a small profit 3 way, and a loss 4 way. Live, your opponents will often play this way, but not always. AK -AJ and probably quite a few other hands will often see the run at least, and this scenario also left out anytime an opponent has a pocket pair. Also, if you Cbet too much or too obviously, some of your opponents will call you and try and take it down on the turn with a big bet.

So, if your going to Cbet wheather in or out of position, ideal conditions would be one or 2 opponents if you want to take it down on the flop. But if those opponents are calling stations or if they have big cards it wont work.
So mix it up, pounding limpers from positions doesnt really work live, and for that matter if you pound any limper who connects solidly post flop, he will in turn pound you back or worse, slowplay you out of all your chips. A Cbet into a huge multiway pot without anything going for you will often just be throwing your money away, especially in a full ring 9h game. With 4 players calling, the probability is only 16% that any of them have not connected with the board. With 5 calling, its 9%, with 6 calling it drops to 5%, and only gets worse from there. I'm not saying play by the book or by the numbers only and every time, but math never lies, and a smart player ignores it at their own risk. Online is so different from live anyway, its practcially a different game, especially at the lower limits.

Lastly, you also cannot forget that there are plenty of bad poker players who are actually quite good at reading people. Playing on the internet to faceless bets and checkraises is something they would never do. Playing live, they may actually experience runs of success because they are good at discerning weakness, strength and dishonesty.

See a cheap flop.
if you can see a lot of cheap flops with speculative hands, you can always get your money in after the flop if its good for you or you sense weakness. If you raise every hand, it will be harder to profit, because then you either miss and fold, miss and Cbet, showdown and lose, showdown and win. 2 of those lose you money for sure and a cbet is nothing sure either. Especially if only one person calls you up with good cards, they may want to showdown, so you'll have a harder time pushing them off.

Speculative hands are just that, speculative. Speculate too much and you go broke. unimproved they dont win much. even one pair with them isnt neccessarily eough to win. If you could see a 3, 4 or 5 way raised pot every time with one (in position most of the time), then they are more worth calling a raise with or maybe even raising with. Dont take my word for it though, put it to practice and you will see how it works.

Slowplaying monsters in live poker is not a blanket rule. But there are likely to be more crazy live players who will triple barrel with air.

Or, they may be the type to never float with AK for a 1/4 pot-size bet, but bluff multiple times OR commit 200BBs for value if they hit the turn. Live players really can be that bad.

edit: im a moran

Looks like a lot of good info in here... I haven't read it all yet, but I have a question.

Shouldn't this be in Micro FR? Micro FR is defined as "Discussion of up to .25/.50 online and up to 2/5 live no-limit pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies." I only happened across this thread b/c of a discussion on another forum, and I wonder how many others are missing it because it's not in the forum that's supposed to be for "up to 2/5 live" discussion.

This thread was started before those guidelines were implemented.

Live Player Stats:

VPIP:55
PFR:6
Aggr:1.2
Cbet: 40%
Fold to Cbet:5%
Fold to Cbet on Turn:90%
Fold to Raise on flop: 10%
Fold on Turn after flop raise: 100%

A bit off-topic i guess on an year+ old thread, but what should one do to appear less of a nit to the rest of the table? To get rid of that imagine of "only plays aces and kings"? In addition to actually adjusting a bit and adding more hands to the range of playable hands ofc.

Just call or raise a way wider range on the button and cutoff, and even 3-bet light on the button every now and then. This requires decent post flop skills so that you know what board textures to barrel on and which ones to give up on, even if you hit a piece, but overall you'll get a decent image when you turn over 68o at showdown on your button, yet it will be one that is somewhat deceptive in that few will notice that your 'antics' are mostly in very late position and will thus be more likely to pay you off when you actually bet for value.

Also, try to talk a lot and be friendly (and preferably talk about non-poker topics, or at the very least don't talk anything resembling strategy). I've seen lots of undercover nits get tons of action because they don't shut up.

+1 to everything here.

Most live players don't fully understand the value of position so playing active on the button will get you more action all around. It depends how bad the players are but I wouldn't 3-bet very light on the button at least very often since you're going to get called very often. Isolating with a lot of hands is good though since TPBK/Mid pair good kicker is golden and always worth at least two streets of value until proven otherwise.

live regs love to tap glass...

i have started playing allot live here in a private game...way better demeanor now than when i started but i feel like i am a tellbox for some reason, even though no one probably pays attention to that...

tbh the stakes sometimes intimidate me for no reason and may affect some decisions that are close...

anyone else limp behind a ton more than online? mostly depending on who has limped or who still is left to act...

FR live is like pulling teeth, played the game from beggining to end last night and got to play short handed with a couple fish and bad regs...lol...fish and even regs live are extremely bad SH, never adjusting and go on defensive really fast...granted i have very little experience so far

GL

Well, let me clarify two things. First off, the 3-betting light comment was mostly in regards to 2/5, where 1.) 3-bet sizing is more intimidating, since while going from 12 to 35 in 1/2 is getting called often by most people, but going from 25 to 70 is better at halting the average player in 2/5, and 2.) even the players that call often will almost always fold anything not TPGK or better to a cbet, which is most hands (plus sizing wise you don't commit yourself with nothing when they do hit hard).

Secondly, 3betting should be a very rarely used part of your arsenal, only against very specific types of opponents and when it seems like a good time to, instead of just 'hey its my button and I feel like 3-betting!', since that's when it just turns into spew. I probably don't do it more than once, maybe twice per session (6 to 8 hours) and even then there are strings of sessions where I just don't bother.

But yeah, to summarize I believe that 3betting light can definitely be printing money since most low stakes players don't think in a multi-street manner, so they'll call hoping to hit and then realize too late they only know how to fold when they whiff.

Also, it really helps in getting action when you pick up aces or kings since most tables where the players aren't total idiots will assume a 3bet means exactly that.

Hey kablooey,

I think a strong player can beat small stakes (5/10NL and below) for about 10BB per hour...any more than that means they just ran hot over a small sample...I've put in a ton of volume live from 1/2nl-10/20nl or when rebuilding after degenerate idiocy or out of sheer boredom really as I've played online most of my career, and about 10BB/100 was the upper echelon of what I beat most games. However, I did beat one sick private 1/2nl game once while rebuilding over a 6 month period for $50 an hour...but it played super super deep (500BB stacks that went in constantly with one pair...) and I was the only even competent player that had ever played in the game in 6 months...so obviously more is possible based on game depth and lineups.

Lol so awesome

First of all this is awesome, I was on here two weeks ago and I was trying to find my place in the forums but couldn't because of all the online players. So offering my insight was pretty much useless to them.

Second, great post, I love all the acronyms.

Third, my thoughts, its all about two things for me, being able to recognize the table type in which you are playing and being able to adjust to it. You are right in what you say for about 95% of the games you find at 1/2 and 2/5. The biggest problems I have run into in live games in the past is miss reading the table type and being stubborn about it and dropping a weeks worth of winnings in a night. Yes you may have crushed the same game for days for a killing but that night or two of being wrong is where winning players go to die.

Here's a good discussion about live win rates. This post includes some of the best of online play and even some excellent live high stakes pros. Kind of long, but it's a good discussion on BB rate/100.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...6/index17.html

I agree that a good player crushing a game in the long term is 8BB - 10BB/hr. Anymore - like the first few of posts - $144.8/hr - 5/10 lol - is just a heater. However, long term in live takes a long, long time so one could be on a heater for a couple of years.

To me, the key to crushing live games is game selection (This may not apply to all) . This is old advice, but I feel that the majority of players fail to adhere to. As soon as you arrive at a place, scope out all the tables and watch a hand or two. Pick a couple good ones (depending on number of games) and immediately ask for a table change if your not at the table. Don't settle for good games cause they're are great games out there. I grind in Vegas so I have more options, but there are options elsewhere, too.

Glad to see this was moved here. When I read it the first time there was one I associated with big time. It was pretty nice to see it and give some stuff a name.

This is something that I wholeheartedly agree with as well, but something that I didn't learn and be able to fully appreciate until later. I started out in the under ground clubs and you were lucky to get four tables some night so game selection wasn't really an option.

But when it did become an option and you learn to take the time to scope yeah you can diffidently tell the difference between a good game and a great game.

Unfortunately, game selection is not a luxury for all live players. I have been fortunate to have lived in Vegas in the past few years and have my first live experiences at Foxwoods.

Even in Vegas, local grinders, regs, and pros, are kinda terrible at game selection. They sit at a grindy, tight table for a few hours when they could have easily moved casinos/tables in an hour or so.

But I'm not going to complain since the more people hassling floor people for table changes, the less time they have to pay attention to my needs .

Not to burst your bubble or be an ass, but NO that is not consistently doable nor sustainable. Check out the thread in B&M on winrates, 10bb/hr would be a great win rate, 15-20 would be just destroying it. You 16 hour sample of 34bbb/hour is just running good over a few sessions. At some point of course you will run insanely bad. Happens to everyone. Again, not trying to aruge, just be realistic about expectation.
Over the last year and a half (1600 hours) Im running at about 8bb/hr at 1/2 and about 7bb/hr at 2/5, though 1600 hours is barely enough to have a meaningfull sample.

Completely agree Geoff.

jda - 16 hours equates to 480 hands. In online, that's not even enough of a sample to determine a player's style of play or have statistically significant stats.

TBH - 15-20 BB/hr still means your on a heater. I would argue that no one or maybe one or two people are making this rate over a statistically significant sample - at least 60k hands - that means 2000k hrs x 30 hands/hr (which is still a stretch).

Beating a 1/2 or 2/5 for 8BB is fairly accurate if you're a strong player.