1/3 NLHE 9 handed.

Table is loose passive, some people drinking, a few OMCs and nits but mostly just loose passive limp callers.

V1 - Unknown loose passive. Have been playing for 3 hours or so with him. Obviously a losing player. RFI's to 10 a lot. VPIPing about 30%. Has never 3-bet or shown much aggression. When he did it was AA. He's been getting a bit unlucky but also just playing badly. He put in stacks for instance with an overpair on a monotone flop HU when the other guy has AhAx and flop was h-h-h, so he was drawing to one out. Overvalues hands I think. LJ. 400$.

V2 - Station. VPIPing about 50%. Haven't played much with him but he's called pre and folded flop a lot. He's just bleeding down. SB. 300$.

H - winning player who covers table. BB.

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Folds to V1 who opens 10, folds to V2 who calls, H sees A T and decides to just call this time (both Vs had been calling 3-bets a lot and I felt OOP at this depth it would just bloat the pot, not sure).

Flop 30 - Q 9 7

V2 check, H check, V1 bets 25, V2 calls, H just calls (thought about raising here)

Turn 105 - K

V2 check, H check, V1 bets 75, V2 calls, Hero?

He doesnt necessarily have your outs. If hes vpiping 50% he can have almost anything here so yea I'd call again. You could find a raise on the flop but calling is fine vs a passive guy that is taking an aggressive line here by raising pre and betting flop multiway.

Not folding here. At least calling. Might occasionally get out of line with a big check raise.

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Never folding. Probably call, we have probably the best hand to raise and if we aren't raising this we only have value ... but V1 ("loose passive ") has bet big twice so I can't see him finding many folds, and worst case he has like KdJd/9d8d and is never folding thinking he's drawing but actually has us beat.

Would have been fine with preflop 3bet but flop raise again seems not great when V1 bets big and V2 calls.

What are your guys' thoughts in comparing a flop x/r to a turn x/r? I'm trying to incorporate more turn x/raises into my game and understand the value vs the more typical flop semi-bluff x/r. Obviously the drawback is - if we're drawing - which we are here...our equity has decreased substantially. This would make me think turn x/raises need to be more weighted to thick and low value [AK, KQ, KJdd, 99 for example here] and a hand like ATdd here is actually more cuspy. Asked another way: "what is the value/marginal/air composition comparison between your flop and turn x/raise ranges on this board?".

Result:

I'm probably about to butcher this, but here goes...

My flop x/r's are usually thick value, or super-high equity draws. Basically, hands that don't mind if I get 3B, and actually might like to just GII. I don't want to x/r the flop with marginal value or marginal equity, and have to fold to a 3B. I'm going to x/r in spots where I could conceivably have flopped a very strong hand on a board that heavily favors my range over V's.

My turn x/r's are usually going to be the opposite - weak value looking to deny equity, and lower equity draws hoping to fold out weak value, but in spots where the turn card changes the nuts and suddenly favors the parts of my range that wouldn't raise flop, but will raise turn, and barrel river. I'm x/r'ing with hands that don't want to flat call turn and not know what to do on the river, but are going to have to fold if V 3B's turn.

So, here, I could see x/r'ing the flop because of how much equity we have, but I would prefer to x/r the turn. On the flop, we have 9 flush outs, one over, and some BDSD, but we're probably not folding out V's TP's, and he could 3B with a lot of his range, knowing we won't have top set. I don't want to x/r ATdd here, and have to fold to a 3B.

On the turn, we pick up more outs, and V's TP combos on the flop just got downgraded to 2nd pair. Even if he has KQ, he's unlikely to 3B, when we could have JT. On the other hand, we have no pair, so no showdown value, and even if we make a pair on the river, it probably won't be good, so we'd like to take the pot down right here.

We'd be repping JT on the turn, praying V folds, or if he doesn't, that we spike a diamond or a jack on the river, but even if we don't, we may need to barrel (not here, against these two, but in other pots, HU against more normal V's). Other than JTdd, few if any of our JT combos would want to x/r the flop, but every one of them sure as $hlt wants to pile the money in on the turn. It helps that we have the Td in our hand.

I'd feel better x/r'ing if this was heads up, and V was betting smaller on flop (~1/3 pot) or turn (~2/3 pot). But this is multi-way, with V1 betting big on both streets, and V2 calling OOP. So if we x/r here, we're getting a bit out of line. I'd only do it if I felt very confident in my table image, and my read that both V's are over-folding to turn aggression.

But, if we did x/r turn, and either V calls, I am definitely not barreling the river on a brick, against either of these two specific V's. I'll barrel against a V with a fold button, but not rec-fish calling stations VPIP'ing 30%-50% opening to $10 or cold-calling from the SB. Even if we spike an ace, I'm just checking back against these two, and never betting if we miss everything.

Ok thanks that helps a lot. Its different MW vs HU for sure.

Against this player type (loose passive), you need to 3bet pre. You want the pot to be as big as possible when you hit a hand, and because villain is passive, you rarely have to worry about getting bluffed off the best hand.

Eg if you hit a T on the flop, you can just keep betting until you get raised, in which case it becomes an easy fold. So ATs is really a mandatory squeeze.

As played, whatever you do is fine as long as you don’t fold. Whether to xr or xc mostly depends on how much fold equity you have. Eg if you expect villain to bet a very strong range, and rarely fold vs a raise, then you obviously want to just call with your draw.

Bunch of nut outs, calling and happy with the situation.

I don't think it's so bad even if (as was shown true) you are sharing outs with the other caller, because then you know you will get paid off if you hit the flush. If no one else makes a worse flush, you may have no implied odds.